MP3's& so called piracy

I just had to respond to the issue of MP3's and so called piracy. I do not agree with you Florian that is called piracy. I tape music off the TV and Radio and make home tapes. Does this make me and a zillion others thieves? NO. There are other ways of finding out websites of MP3's. You cannot stop this Florian. If this gets me kicked off of here so be it. Who the hell made you GOD????

I just had to respond to the issue of MP3's and so called piracy. I do not agree with you Florian that is called piracy. I tape music off the TV and Radio and make home tapes. Does this make me and a zillion others thieves? NO. There are other ways of finding out websites of MP3's. You cannot stop this Florian. If this gets me kicked off of here so be it. Who the hell made you GOD????

[Florian]

Hi Gord,

Nobody wants to kick you off. I have started my reply in the other topic with "You are a welcomed member of this discussion board".

Just a couple of thoughts:

.) If you make a copy of a CD you have purchased (for example put it on tape to listen to it in the car) that's perfectly fine.

.) If you make a copy of a CD and give (or even sell) it to somebody, you are violating copyrights. I have referred to this copyright violation using the term 'piracy'.

.) If you make and share illegal copies that's not my concern. You are responsible for what you are doing. I am not the speaker of the RIAA (Recording Industry Association of America). I too find some of their legal actions ridiculous.

.) Even if there are a zillion other 'thieves' out there, that still doesn't make things right.

.) I am not naive - I know that hundreds of thousands mp3's are just a click away.

.) Please understand that this is a moderated forum. I am the moderator of this board, and I try to do this job to my best abilities, which means that I feel compelled to edit any post that "is knowingly false and/or defamatory, inaccurate, abusive, vulgar, hateful, harassing, obscene, profane, sexually oriented, threatening, invasive of a person's privacy, or otherwise violative of any law."

.) I assume that your posting was done with best intentions and was meant to be helpful to others.

.) I do not criticise you for sharing links to mp3's, I just kindly ask you to do it by other means than this Discussion Board.

.) Personally, I would rather see someone purchase one of Gordon Lightfoot's CDs than download an mp3.

Please do not leave - I am very interested in discussing this topic with you.

[chris]

I don't think Florian was objecting to you making home tapes for your own use. The issue is when an artist's work is put out there and made available to any one who wants it without the artist receiving the compensation he or she deserves for the product they have produced - whether it's music or poetry or essays etc. How is it fair to GL that people can download his music without paying for it? If GL wants to make his music available to the masses free of charge that would be his decision and not yours or mine to make for him. But think about it, why should an artist or anyone give away his work? It's like anything else, if you take something without someone's permission or without paying for it, its stealing. I think what you are talking about IS piracy, pure and simple.

Florian, maybe this post didn't warrant a response, but this whole issue gets my blood pressure up.

chris

------------------
"It took most of my time to do what never was done" -- GL

[Janice]

Wow, only my second post to this awesome site and I pick such a controversial topic. Florian, I'm playing Devil's Advocate here because I actually agree with your copyright issues. However, I must point out that I feel you are being somewhat hypocritical in your decision regarding Gord's original MP3 post. I refer you to the December 18th post to the topic "Lightfoot: If You Could Read His Mind" Where you stated "I'd be more than willing to make a copy of it and to send it to you via mail". Does this offer not also fringe upon some copyright legalities? What makes it ok for you to offer to copy this book on the board and not ok for Gord to want to share his "exciting" find regarding MP3's?

Just food for thought.

Janice

[This message has been edited by Janice (edited January 29, 2000).]

[Florian]

Hi Janice,

You have a point there. I admit it is a violation of the author's copyright to make a copy of his book and to send it to someone.

I did not make a difference because I think it is ok for me to do things and not ok for others to do the same.

The little difference in my opinion is that this book has long been out of print, so there is no possibility to purchase it other than second hand.

If this book is traded second hand, the author or the publisher don't get a penny.

It is therefore not a decision of purchase vs copy, because a purchase is not possible any more.

In this situation I think making a copy doesn't do any harm, because the recipient of the copy would not have had any chance to actually purchase it instead.

I think this is different for items still available for purchase. Making a copy of a song (via mp3) will result in one less CD sold.

Florian

[paradoxides]

That was kinda my theory to, which is why I offered to make a copy of a record for someone. They were perfectly willing to go out and buy Dream Street Rose, but seeing as how it is no longer available, I figured it couldn't hurt. I looked for the "final four" for a long time before I fianlly way overpaied for them. And GL didn't get anything from my overpaying, only someone who bought the records a long time ago. Anyway, I am not saying that certain degrees of piracy are ok (well, my name would imply otherwise), but I do see the point of copying something for someone that they would otherwise buy if possible. I know that as far as the bio goes, I have seen it sell from anywhere between $60 to $160. For someone like me (who is a 21 y.o. poor college student) who just wants to read it it, this is a lot of money (BTW, did I mention I love the library, I have a copy of it out right now). SO...I understand both points that Florian is speaking on (the MP3 piracy thing and the book copyright).

[Pirate Queen]

That was kinda my theory to, which is why I offered to make a copy of a record for someone. They were perfectly willing to go out and buy Dream Street Rose, but seeing as how it is no longer available, I figured it couldn't hurt. I looked for the "final four" for a long time before I fianlly way overpaied for them. And GL didn't get anything from my overpaying, only someone who bought the records a long time ago. Anyway, I am not saying that certain degrees of piracy are ok (well, my name would imply otherwise), but I do see the point of copying something for someone that they would otherwise buy if possible. I know that as far as the bio goes, I have seen it sell from anywhere between $60 to $160. For someone like me (who is a 21 y.o. poor college student) who just wants to read it it, this is a lot of money (BTW, did I mention I love the library, I have a copy of it out right now). SO...I understand both points that Florian is speaking on (the MP3 piracy thing and the book copyright).

[Janice]

I also understand Florian's points. As I mentioned from the start, I am playing Devil's Advocate here because there is a small bit of rebel left in me that can understand Gord's position as well. My interpretation of his resentment is that Florian Chose to be everyone's conscience. He was putting the information out there and what we did with it as individuals should have been our choice (Gord can correct me if this is an incorrect assessment). This is a discussion board; discussion could have been an option. Yes it is a controversial issue and people have their opinions. It should be ok to have an opinion even if it differs from our own. If the opportunity to have the interesting and honest discussion that we are now having had been encouraged, maybe there wouldn't have been hurt feelings and anger; maybe Gord would have had a better understanding of what appears to be the general consensus; maybe we would have had a better understanding of his thoughts. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying agreement in either case, I'm saying understanding. If I recall correctly, there was one person out there who thanked Gord for this information.

I don't mean to belittle Florian's authority as Moderator of this board, it can't be easy making these types of decisions. I'm not even suggesting that Florian should have done anything differently. I'm merely suggesting that we should try to see other points of view even if we don't agree with them (This thought goes to Gord as well). Even though I haven't posted until recently, I've been "visiting" for several months. I love the poetry and passion that Gordon Lightfoot's music instills and it's nice to know that there are others who feel the same. If I have, in any way, stepped on toes or offended anyone with my food for thought postings, I am truly sorry.

Janice

[This message has been edited by Janice (edited January 29, 2000).]

Well I have calmed down somewhat in the last few days. Not everyone has the up to date fastest computer etc with a fancy CD ROm. Quite often I put in a disc of Lightfoot while I am working away. Recording a CD makes for a lousy copy on your regular sound player that comes with Windows.

The lawsuits pending against Napster etc I believe are the result of unfounded fears. Unless you have gobs of memory it doesn't make much sense to keep them all in your hard drive. If somebody goes out and buys a CD as a result of being able to listen to a song in this format I am all for it.

I bought the Songbook box set because of it, I found a site that had clips of the unreleased material, I liked the tunes so I bought it . As a result Gord Lightfoot recieved his cut from me. On a Tv interview with Peter Gzowski two years ago Gord said himself that any way people discover his music is fine by him.

And yes my real name is Gord to those who have questioned it.

Well I have calmed down somewhat in the last few days. Not everyone has the up to date fastest computer etc with a fancy CD ROm. Quite often I put in a disc of Lightfoot while I am working away. Recording a CD makes for a lousy copy on your regular sound player that comes with Windows.

The lawsuits pending against Napster etc I believe are the result of unfounded fears. Unless you have gobs of memory it doesn't make much sense to keep them all in your hard drive. If somebody goes out and buys a CD as a result of being able to listen to a song in this format I am all for it.

I bought the Songbook box set because of it, I found a site that had clips of the unreleased material, I liked the tunes so I bought it . As a result Gord Lightfoot recieved his cut from me. On a Tv interview with Peter Gzowski two years ago Gord said himself that any way people discover his music is fine by him.

And yes my real name is Gord to those who have questioned it.

[Florian]

Hi Janice,

Thank you for your recent posting.

I agree with you that it is the very nature of a discussion board to exchange different opinions. It can not (and should not) be a club of people sharing identical thoughts (obviously except for our appreciation of Gordon Lightfoot's music).

I can perfectly understand why Gord has become angry. I did not discuss with him, I used my position as moderator to censor one of his posts.

I did not make this decision lightheartedly
but as this is a moderated forum I feel responsible to act if a certain consensus is violated.

Of course it can be argued when that point is reached; I felt that the majority of Lightfoot fans don't appreciate mp3's since for example requests for mp3's to the newsgroup news:alt.music.lightfoot
always result in harsh criticism.

I'm interested in learning what other members of this discussion board think about this situation.

[Florian]

Hi Gord,

I am glad to see you are back.

To put things to a rest, I hope you understand that the actions taken were in no way intended to offend you personally. I tried to explain my reasons in this topic. Anyhow, if you have felt personally offended, I apologize for that.

-Florian

[thermodynamic me]

Florian,

This has been an interesting discussion. Maybe I can put a different spin on it.

As a business owner in the USA I am often faced with questions from employees regarding taxes on wages and benefits. Our Federal tax code is a twisted maze that is an accountants dream as no one else can understand it. Our employees (including myself!) are often frustrated why some benefits are taxable and some are not. The situation is not clear and it is not logical and often it is not fair. The only thing that is essential is that we all must follow the law. If we don't like the law we should not blame the tax enforcement authorities. We should petition the legislatures that can change the law. When our employees complain my answer is simple and not sarcastic. It is the truth. My answer is "if you don't like it call your congressman."

The situation is the same with copyrights. It is against USA and International law to violate copyrights. It is against the law to copy material that is copyrighted, even when you don't profit from it. Unless you own the copyright you don't have the right to copy it. There is no difference between a music file posted on a web site and your copying a book that is out of print. Gord's answer was blunt and your answer was a beautiful rationalization, but you both are wrong. Unless you had permission to copy that book from the owner of the copyright you broke the law. It does not matter that you feel no harm was done.

Do I think you guys are evil criminals deserving of prison? Of course not. Law is often unfair and too often unenforceable and ridiculous. The solution, however, is not rationalization. The solution is legislative action to bring copyright laws into the reality of the information age.

You did the right thing editing Gord's post. Just keep in mind the law and consider the reality of the issues involved. Hopefully someday the law with catch up with the technology. Until it does you would be wise to not allow any posts which offer any copying unless you are sure the copyright owner has granted permission. In the meantime call your legislators and speak your mind!

Thanks,

Buddy

[BuddyP]

Florian,

This has been an interesting discussion. Maybe I can put a different spin on it.

As a business owner in the USA I am often faced with questions from employees regarding taxes on wages and benefits. Our Federal tax code is a twisted maze that is an accountants dream as no one else can understand it. Our employees (including myself!) are often frustrated why some benefits are taxable and some are not. The situation is not clear and it is not logical and often it is not fair. The only thing that is essential is that we all must follow the law. If we don't like the law we should not blame the tax enforcement authorities. We should petition the legislatures that can change the law. When our employees complain my answer is simple and not sarcastic. It is the truth. My answer is "if you don't like it call your congressman."

The situation is the same with copyrights. It is against USA and International law to violate copyrights. It is against the law to copy material that is copyrighted, even when you don't profit from it. Unless you own the copyright you don't have the right to copy it. There is no difference between a music file posted on a web site and your copying a book that is out of print. Gord's answer was blunt and your answer was a beautiful rationalization, but you both are wrong. Unless you had permission to copy that book from the owner of the copyright you broke the law. It does not matter that you feel no harm was done.

Do I think you guys are evil criminals deserving of prison? Of course not. Law is often unfair and too often unenforceable and ridiculous. The solution, however, is not rationalization. The solution is legislative action to bring copyright laws into the reality of the information age.

You did the right thing editing Gord's post. Just keep in mind the law and consider the reality of the issues involved. Hopefully someday the law with catch up with the technology. Until it does you would be wise to not allow any posts which offer any copying unless you are sure the copyright owner has granted permission. In the meantime call your legislators and speak your mind!

Thanks,

Buddy

Please excuse my ignorance in this, but what is the difference between MP3 and midi files? As far as copyrights go wouldn't they both be copyrightable? Just wondering....

Please excuse my ignorance in this, but what is the difference between MP3 and midi files? As far as copyrights go wouldn't they both be copyrightable? Just wondering....

[LouiseAnne]

Well, GORD --
First of all, I have a REAL problem with your user name. Gordon Lightfoot usually says, and I quote "My friends call me Gord."

So where do YOU get off using that name? I guess it just fits in with your idea that it's okay to pirate his music. You pirate his name so why not everything else? I also see that you're not even a member! No, it's wrong to put out MP3's. Because then people will just download the music and never buy the CD.
That's fine for the people enjoying the music. And yes, in a way, it doesn't affect the artist. But in a very important way, it DOES.

Granted, the artist signs a contract and he gets paid. However, the record company gets their money back by the amount of CDs they sell. If their sales for that particular artist drop because everyone is pirating them off the internet -- guess what! The artist's sales drop and THEY DON'T SIGN THAT ARTIST ON AGAIN when the contract runs out!

If you're a true fan of Gord, (which I kind of doubt) first, you wouldn't presume to use his name as your own so casually and secondly, you wouldn't endorse the illegal passing on of his music.

This may get ME kicked out of here, but I just have to say it. Be loyal or follow someone else.

Stay loose, eh?

LAMS



------------------
"Love and maple syrup
go together like the
sticky winds of winter
when they meet....
If you go into the forest
Gaze up through the trees
The sky is white.
You can understand
What makes the forest
Greet the man
Like a mother's only
child ..."

[loveandmaplesyrup]

Well, GORD --
First of all, I have a REAL problem with your user name. Gordon Lightfoot usually says, and I quote "My friends call me Gord."

So where do YOU get off using that name? I guess it just fits in with your idea that it's okay to pirate his music. You pirate his name so why not everything else? I also see that you're not even a member! No, it's wrong to put out MP3's. Because then people will just download the music and never buy the CD.
That's fine for the people enjoying the music. And yes, in a way, it doesn't affect the artist. But in a very important way, it DOES.

Granted, the artist signs a contract and he gets paid. However, the record company gets their money back by the amount of CDs they sell. If their sales for that particular artist drop because everyone is pirating them off the internet -- guess what! The artist's sales drop and THEY DON'T SIGN THAT ARTIST ON AGAIN when the contract runs out!

If you're a true fan of Gord, (which I kind of doubt) first, you wouldn't presume to use his name as your own so casually and secondly, you wouldn't endorse the illegal passing on of his music.

This may get ME kicked out of here, but I just have to say it. Be loyal or follow someone else.

Stay loose, eh?

LAMS



------------------
"Love and maple syrup
go together like the
sticky winds of winter
when they meet....
If you go into the forest
Gaze up through the trees
The sky is white.
You can understand
What makes the forest
Greet the man
Like a mother's only
child ..."

[LouiseAnne]

And one more thing ... Florian is NOT trying to play GOD. He has something you never even heard of ... it's a quality called LOYALTY. If you want to bash go somewhere else.

Now, I've said it and if you all want me to leave, then so be it.

Stay loose, eh?

LAMS

------------------
"Love and maple syrup
go together like the
sticky winds of winter
when they meet....
If you go into the forest
Gaze up through the trees
The sky is white.
You can understand
What makes the forest
Greet the man
Like a mother's only
child ..."

[loveandmaplesyrup]

And one more thing ... Florian is NOT trying to play GOD. He has something you never even heard of ... it's a quality called LOYALTY. If you want to bash go somewhere else.

Now, I've said it and if you all want me to leave, then so be it.

Stay loose, eh?

LAMS

------------------
"Love and maple syrup
go together like the
sticky winds of winter
when they meet....
If you go into the forest
Gaze up through the trees
The sky is white.
You can understand
What makes the forest
Greet the man
Like a mother's only
child ..."

My real name is actually Gord whether anybody here really believes it or not and that is my father's name as well. I am a member of this group if you will take off yer blindfold and see "member" below my name.

I am the kind of person who doesn't put up with crap and I will not take it here either.

I have been a fan of Gord Lightfoot's since I was a kid, if I was NOT a fan I would not be participating in this forum.

MP3's are the newest music format whether the recording industry likes it or not. I seem to recall there was an upheaval when the phone was invented too, seemed people thought it would be the bastardization of society and that has not turned out to be the case.

Additionally manufacturer's have slapped on royalty taxes on the various recording methods.

If ya'll don't believe my name is Gord just contact the Ontario Vital Stat's and you will find me there.

My real name is actually Gord whether anybody here really believes it or not and that is my father's name as well. I am a member of this group if you will take off yer blindfold and see "member" below my name.

I am the kind of person who doesn't put up with crap and I will not take it here either.

I have been a fan of Gord Lightfoot's since I was a kid, if I was NOT a fan I would not be participating in this forum.

MP3's are the newest music format whether the recording industry likes it or not. I seem to recall there was an upheaval when the phone was invented too, seemed people thought it would be the bastardization of society and that has not turned out to be the case.

Additionally manufacturer's have slapped on royalty taxes on the various recording methods.

If ya'll don't believe my name is Gord just contact the Ontario Vital Stat's and you will find me there.

[LouiseAnne]

Well, "GORD" if that's your name and your father's name before you ... first of all, you're only a member because you managed to put in 10 posts. That does NOT necessarily make you a Gordon Lightfoot fan.
And secondly, I for one would appreciate it if you would refrain from using profanity. We are all a fun bunch here and we don't need to listen to that kind of language. If you can't say something in a way that doesn't call for profanity, then kindly don't say it.
I really don't understand what your whole point in being here is. Maybe you could enlighten me.

LAMS

------------------
"Love and maple syrup
go together like the
sticky winds of winter
when they meet....
If you go into the forest
Gaze up through the trees
The sky is white.
You can understand
What makes the forest
Greet the man
Like a mother's only
child ..."

[loveandmaplesyrup]

Well, "GORD" if that's your name and your father's name before you ... first of all, you're only a member because you managed to put in 10 posts. That does NOT necessarily make you a Gordon Lightfoot fan.
And secondly, I for one would appreciate it if you would refrain from using profanity. We are all a fun bunch here and we don't need to listen to that kind of language. If you can't say something in a way that doesn't call for profanity, then kindly don't say it.
I really don't understand what your whole point in being here is. Maybe you could enlighten me.

LAMS

------------------
"Love and maple syrup
go together like the
sticky winds of winter
when they meet....
If you go into the forest
Gaze up through the trees
The sky is white.
You can understand
What makes the forest
Greet the man
Like a mother's only
child ..."