StringTalk

[Iron]

Some of the Guitar picken patrons on this site seemed to have some interest in this idea of a pickers post or topic or whatever you want to call it.I thought "StringTalk" would work. PickersPost don't sound to bad either.Take yer pick and pick away...

Cathy,
You mentioned about a 12-string on the horizon.If any dealers in Your area handle Godin/Seagull guitars,check them out if You get time.If You are not concerned about glitter and shine,the S-12(+) is a great choice for a 12-string if You don't want to spend a million.Great sound for Gord songs,easy on the fingers,and fairly easy on the wallet,compared to some of the higher end choices.The S12+ that I got from a local dealer had a slight ding on the front,got it for almost 1/2 price.The electronics leave a lot to be desired,but other than that,I could'nt be happier.This model is made with cherry wood with a dull finish like on the D-15 mahogony.They are made up in Gordland too!!Just thought I would pass it along...

[Cathy]

Thanks for the suggestions, Brian. I had forgotten about the Seagulls, and I know many people with only good things to say about them. I've really got my heart set on a Martin J12-15 or Martin J12-16GT, though. I guess we'll just have to wait and see how things work out.

[New 12 String Mike]

Brian,

StringTalk works for me.

I just rediscovered "Miguel." Yeah, I know its a fingerstyle six song, and I'm supposed to be doing 12s, but it is a fun one to play and sing. The better base on the new Martin got me doing this one.

Be working on Soul is the Rock on the 12 too. Triangle is another fun one.

[New 12 String Mike]

Someday,

Hmmm. I haven't tried to describe this with just words before, without being able to demonstrate it.

What are some of the songs you want to learn first?

A good one to start on would be one like, "Pony Man." It is a simple G-C-D chord song with an easy to hear thumb and finger style play listening to the record. You start the chord with the thumb on the bass strings and fill in using your fingers plucking the high strings with an up stroke in a pattern. In "Pony" you basically just alter the bass note with each chord change as you keep the pattern going with your fingers on the higher strings. The note changes on the high strings have to flow along as your fingers move chord to chord. I suppose it is similar to playing the bass when you have a set repeatable passage in a song.

Hope this helps you get started.

[Glenmark]

I tend to use my thumb for the low E and A, index for the D and G, middle for the B and high E...I think. I learned the technique years ago and now it's second nature, but the rhythm is like a swimming motion with your fingers.

[vlmagee]

OK, beginner here chiming in, but my brain is far more advanced than my fingers.

You use your thumb for the bass notes, alternating low bass and high bass (in that order usually). The bass notes depend on the chord. You play treble notes between the bass notes, not necessarily 1 for 1, but that's a basic pattern that is used in many songs.

When I was first learning (okay, I am still learning), I created a simple notation for myself so I could write down how to play a song. This was before I learned tab, but it is useful as a shorthand to describe picking patterns. It does not tell you the chord or how to fret it, but it is a simple way to communicate the pattern.

T is thumb, I is index, M is middle (there are other ways to play, but this is the most common and usually easiest to learn). Here are two very similar patterns that are can be used to play a number of Lightfoot songs. I use them for Sit Down Young Stranger and Song For A Winter's Night, and they are very close to the way the recordings sound. The number is the string. This is only the picking hand, and doesn't show the timing.

T6-T4-I3-T6-M2-T4 (6 beats to the measure)
T6-T4-I3-T6-M2-T4-I3 (7 beats to the measure)

You can use either or a combination of both. The 6 then 4 string is low bass then high bass for chords like G, E, and D/F# (a GL favorite). For C and A, as examples, the bass would be strings 5 and 4 but C/G, another GL favorite, would use 6 and 4. It is the alternation of the bass notes played by the thumb that establishes the rhythm of Travis picking and gives it its distinctive sound. Not everybody plays it this way, but this is how it is intended to be played.

If you play around with these patterns, or the simple alternation (with 8 beats to the measure), you'll find that you can play most of Lightfoot's Travis picked songs (and Dylan's and Simon's and others).

Of course, it helps if you practice more often than I do. As I said, my brain is far ahead of my fingers.

If you want to learn SFAWN or SDYS, I can send you the specific picking for the intro of the first and the bridge of the second (all figured out and written down by Cathy).

Have fun. Travis picking is great, and really makes the songs.

[New 12 String Mike]

Wow Valerie you've worked at it!

Someday,

Any method that you can make work for you, use.

There is no absolute "correct" method. It wouldn't be "folk" music if it was.

But, one thing I will caution you about. If you are planning to take lessons, you may not want to proceed much further on your own. Your future teacher may have a method of teaching Travis Style and if you start by yourself, you may be placed in the position of un-learning what you've done to learn the teacher's way. This could lead to tangled fingers and lots of frustration.

Having said that, I'll go on to say, while I did have a few formal lessons with a guitar teacher, I never had enough to hurt my picking any. While I applaude Valerie's work toward her playing, I've never used TAB, or standard note reading, for my fingerstyle work that accompanied my singing. I've always seen music notation for use for instrumental playing that included the melody, etc. If others, or you, want to use notation for things other than that, you'll get no grief from me. I do "read" and know some theory. I learned it when I was doing choral singing, etc. It was necessary then, obviously, but I've always felt that singing folk music and playing folk style guitar techniques shouldn't be so formal. Does my theory stuff come into play on my guitars, sure. I just try to listen and learn. Watch other players and learn from them. Would I be a good lead guitar player in a band? I'd have lots of trouble. Some will say I've done it wrong for almost 40 years, but I've had fun.

I started simply by alternating a down stroke with the thumb on the 4 low strings with an up stroke, using my index finger on the high strings until I filled out the measure. Just an UP...DOWN...UP...DOWN thing. As that started to become comfortable I added the middle finger. It wasn't long before I moved from swipes at the strings to individual plucking. For me it was a natural progression to that "swimming" thing that Glenmark mentioned above. It probably isn't the best way, but it worked. In short order I was moving in more complex rythyms, (tripplets gave me Hell for awhile!) but, I made it.

Other folks I know will add other tricks and stuff to the list. It is the folky way, anyway.

The main thing is to have fun!

[Iron]

Someday,
You got lots of great advice,thought I would give you my 2 penny's worth.Being a bass player will give you an upper hand{thumb} learning travis picken.Sing the song's as you are practicing and you will pretty much figure out if your getting the bass notes in the right place.Restless is one of my favorite T-pickers,though the between verses picken still gives me fits,the rest is fairly simple.
Another good one to practice T-picken is Cold on the Shoulder,at least I think so.
Here is an exercise you can work at to get the basic finger pattern etched into your mind.
Thumb,index,thumb,middle,T,I,T,M,T,I,T,M.....
You can practice this exercise with your fingers anytime or anywhere,you don't even need your guitar.Just keep the pattern in mind and practice against whatever object is at hand.{A little discreation may be advised here}As you get this basic pattern etched into your brain and fingers and start applying it to songs,you can work at the alternating bass and treble as needed.try to work on a song that you are very familar with,this will help you to know when your gettin it,and when your not.As I mentioned,Try to get that basic T,I,T,M,T,I,T,M.....pattern etched in to yer fingers and stem cells,and go from there....

[Iron]

I use the right side of the gearshift with my arm resting on the center console.Hey,whatever work's...

[Cathy]

Originally posted by New 12 String Mike:
Brian,

StringTalk works for me.

I just rediscovered "Miguel." Yeah, I know its a fingerstyle six song, and I'm supposed to be doing 12s, but it is a fun one to play and sing. The better base on the new Martin got me doing this one.

Be working on Soul is the Rock on the 12 too. Triangle is another fun one.

If you like fingerpicking, you might try using the 12 string while playing Bitter Green. I worked up an arrangement about 5 years ago that is beautiful on a 12.

[Cathy]

Someday, if Val can do it, so can you. She started out Travis picking from the very first time she picked up a guitar.
Just a little embellishment on her post to help you with timing.

She wrote T6-T4-I3-T6-M2-T4 (6 beats to the measure)
T6-T4-I3-T6-M2-T4-I3 (7 beats to the measure)

Count the first one... T6-T4-I3-T6-M2-T4... out using the following rhythm...1-2 and 3 and 4. The numerals are on the beat, and the word 'and' falls on the off beat. The numerals are played with you thumb and the 'ands' are played with index and middle fingers. T6 means thumb on 6th string. T4 means thumb on the 4th string. I3 means index on the 3rd string and m2 means middle finger on the second string. So the bass is constantly alternating between the 6th and 4th string, with the index and middle played between the bass notes. You would count T6-T4-I3-T6-M2-T4 out like this: one, two and, three and four.
G is a good chord to practice this pattern on. On some chords, like A, C... the bass alternates from high bass to low, so the picking pattern is different. You have to remember which chords are low bass - high bass, or high bass - low bass. After awhile it comes naturally (unless you suffer from a brain aneurysm, of course, and forgot what one of your hands is supposed to do!)

On the guitar, the thickest string (bass string) is string #6, and the thinnest string (treble string) is string #1.
Here's a website that explain's Travis picking a lot better than I do... http://www.ezfolk.com/guitar/Tutoria...s_picking.html

Now, don't expect to be able to do this immediately. It takes time to develope the style, especialliy if you don't have someone to show you first hand. I have some tablature of a few Ligthfoot songs I could share with you, if you are really serious about learning to fingerpick. E-mail me if you're interested. Or you can reach me on AIM under the screen name cathyco1, or Yahoo chat under cathycowette.

You can also e-mail me if there is any of this you don't understand, and cathy@cathycowette.com

Good luck!

[Cathy]

Originally posted by New 12 String Mike:
Wow Valerie you've worked at it!

Someday,

Any method that you can make work for you, use.

There is no absolute "correct" method. It wouldn't be "folk" music if it was.

But, one thing I will caution you about. If you are planning to take lessons, you may not want to proceed much further on your own. Your future teacher may have a method of teaching Travis Style and if you start by yourself, you may be placed in the position of un-learning what you've done to learn the teacher's way. This could lead to tangled fingers and lots of frustration.

And remember, many guitar teachers don't have a clue about the proper way to Travis pick. I've seen quite a few that don't know they are supposed to alternate low bass and high bass by picking the individual strings with their thumb. They pick the high bass with their index, which REALLY leads to tangled fingers!
Seeing you are a bass player, you have part of the problem figured out already... where to play the bass notes.

[vlmagee]

Originally posted by Cathy:
Someday, if Val can do it, so can you.

What an endorsement. Imagine if she weren't a friend!

On some chords, like A, C... the bass alternates from high bass to low, so the picking pattern is different.

Now you tell me!

[Iron]

Paul Smith is one to check out in the cyberspace arena also.I don,t know where else I would have heard about Him,so it must have been here at some time.I have him on the favs. list,but I have not had the time to really check it out enough to say if he would be any help with learning T-picken,but he does mention Gordon often.Now that the WINTER season is fast approaching,maybe I'll have time to check out Mr. Paul.
A little side note,the ONLY 2 good thing's about WINTER :
1. I have some time to be with the guitar.
2. WINTER remind's me,for months on end,How much I like Summer...

[Iron]

What is your "replacement"? What kind of strings are working for You ?
I put a set of Elixers on my 12 a while back,I'm goin back to the E.B.s next change.I will have to look it up,but if you {or anyone} buy strings on the internet,I'll get the info and pass it along.This place has the best prices I've ever seen for strings.Even including the shipping,their prices are super..

[New 12 String Mike]

Ah stringin' 12s!

I'm about to replace the originals on the Alvarez. It came with Elixer phospher bronze lights, that now as they are aging are finally losing their "too bright" sound.

I'm thinking of going with some Martin 80-20 lights when I change them.

Any opinions?

[New 12 String Mike]

Cathy,

Thanks for the Bitter Green 12 tip.

I've not tried BG, but I've been noodling with finger style 12 on Softly. Have you tried that one?

The first finger style 12 I did after buying the guitar in July was Paul Simon's "For Emily..." I'd always wanted to do that one.

[Cathy]

Originally posted by someday:
Well, my soon to be ex-husband had a 12-string his brother gave him that I had set up and strung.

He wants to keep it in his family so, we made some trades with furniture and stuff and he got me another Yamaha 12-string on e-bay.. It arrived with dead strings and needed a slight neck adjustment.. had that done yesterday.. put some Adamas Bronze light guage on it.

You mean, you didn't steal his 12 string and hide it in the back of the messiest closet in your new place!
Gee. Where did this tool chest come from? It looks so much like the one my ex-husband had.

[Cathy]

Originally posted by New 12 String Mike:
Cathy,

Thanks for the Bitter Green 12 tip.

I've not tried BG, but I've been noodling with finger style 12 on Softly. Have you tried that one?

The first finger style 12 I did after buying the guitar in July was Paul Simon's "For Emily..." I'd always wanted to do that one.

I have played just about every Gord song that's fingerpicked (and a lot of the strummed ones too).

I used to play a lot of Paul Simon sings, including For Emily... but I've forgotten most of them... well, except for The Boxer, Kathy's Song and Homeward Bound.

[Cathy]

Originally posted by vlmagee:
quote:Originally posted by Cathy:
Someday, if Val can do it, so can you.

What an endorsement. Imagine if she weren't a friend!

On some chords, like A, C... the bass alternates from high bass to low, so the picking pattern is different.

Now you tell me! [/QUOTE]What are you talking about? You had already figured out the alternate bass notes... all by yourself!

[Cathy]

Originally posted by someday:
Well, my soon to be ex-husband had a 12-string his brother gave him that I had set up and strung.

He wants to keep it in his family so, we made some trades with furniture and stuff and he got me another Yamaha 12-string on e-bay.. It arrived with dead strings and needed a slight neck adjustment.. had that done yesterday.. put some Adamas Bronze light guage on it.

Wow. I wish my ex would have bought me a 12 string! The only thing with the number 12 he ever bought was a 12 pack.

[Cathy]

Originally posted by someday:
LOL Cathy about hiding the guitar....but there are no more messes in my place since he moved out!! I'm an obsessive, compulsive neat freak... P.S. I am having fun working on IYCRMM.. :D

IYCRMM was the first Lightfoot song I learned. I started playing it in the early '70s, but didn't really learn the correct way to play it until 1995 or so. I was sitting in my house, playing along to a CD of Gord when the song came on, and it just struck me how to chord it, and more importantly, how to fingerpick it. I love that song.

[Iron]

Someday,
My often times mistaken sense of humor tends to inadvertantly get me knee deep in the stinky stuff,so don't take this wrong ,it's jest in fun.

Lets back the chord cart up here for a minute.You say your goin to try Bitter Green when Your "ability" is better,and on yer next post,You taught yerself Sundown,sang and played it on the first take.How much better could your "ability" be??? You must be another one of those musical naturalilsts that just hears something,picks up the guitar,and plays it!!!
If I work on a song for a month,and I'm half arsed pleased with it,I'm happy.You people just make me sick to my acoustic stomach..Why could'nt I have had some of those natural musical chromostones spilled into me??
As for the strings,I used to think a string was a string, until I started trying different ones.For now,I really like the Earnie Ball on the six string (med.light).Keep on Pickin

[Cathy]

Originally posted by Iron:
Someday,
My often times mistaken sense of humor tends to inadvertantly get me knee deep in the stinky stuff,so don't take this wrong ,it's jest in fun.

Lets back the chord cart up here for a minute.You say your goin to try Bitter Green when Your "ability" is better,and on yer next post,You taught yerself Sundown,sang and played it on the first take.How much better could your "ability" be??? You must be another one of those musical naturalilsts that just hears something,picks up the guitar,and plays it!!!
If I work on a song for a month,and I'm half arsed pleased with it,I'm happy.You people just make me sick to my acoustic stomach..Why could'nt I have had some of those natural musical chromostones spilled into me??
As for the strings,I used to think a string was a string, until I started trying different ones.For now,I really like the Earnie Ball on the six string (med.light).Keep on Pickin

Well Iron, if it makes you feel any better, after I came too, I couldn't remember a thing about finger picking, and it scared the crap out of me. In my own little sick mind, I didn't care if I couldn't walk, or talk, or even think, for that matter, as long as I could still fingerpick. I mean, come on! Don't take that part away!
It took me a couple of weeks to even play well enough to convince myself that I could get it back with practice, and I'm still a lot slower at it than I originally was. But it's getting there.

[Iron]

Cathy,
If it might be any consolation,Whatever you may have temporarily forgot is probably more than I'll ever know ...
When it comes to sick mind's,here's a glimpse of mine:
I feel bad for people that've had accident's and become paralyzed and such,but I've often thought,would'nt it be neat if I had some kind of accident at work,was paralyzed from just below the waist down,{hey, it's my accident}got on total dissability,and had to spend all my time doin what I love to do..
I better quit while I'm behind....