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Old 09-12-2008, 05:00 PM   #1
johnfowles
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Default Baseball or Rounders either way it was invented in the UK!!


headline in yesterday's Daily Telegraph
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/oth...C-new_12092008
Major League Baseball told their sport was invented in Surrey, not America
Baseball was not invented in America but in genteel Surrey, according to evidence that has just come to light
Interesting article that makes absolutely no reference to the superficially similar UK kids game of Rounders
Some memorable quotes on:-
http://answers.yahoo.com/question/in...2040702AAgM05m

"They are basically the same, major difference being in the UK its 13 year old girls who play it in schools. Baseball in the US however is a big deal, same game but they have a 'world series' so they can call themselves champions of the world - this is of course a 'world series' THAT NO-ONE ELSE TAKES PART IN!"

"The main one seems to be in rounders you don't have to kit up like a crash dummy but then it is American"

"Dunno, but Americans don't half lose the plot if you call baseball rounders.
It's all hitting a ball with a stick to me. Cricket's just as stupid."

"baseball is some girly yank sport and rounders is a girly skool kids UK sport"

Discuss
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Old 09-12-2008, 05:26 PM   #2
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Default Re: Baseball or Rounders either way it was invented in the UK!!

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Discuss
Is that an order ?

OK then......

Congratulations on inventing a great game ! I'm glad we were able to make a "New and Improved" version.
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Old 09-12-2008, 05:54 PM   #3
charlene
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http://ezinearticles.com/?The-Origin...all&id=1097991

Wu-YiSource.comPrior to 1845, the standardized rules for modern baseball did not exist. 1845 saw the formation of the New York Knickerbockers, a base ball club that gathered together to play a game that "they had been playing for some time" - most likely a game that had been invented by urban children of the time. Alexander Cartwright is officially recognized as the first to write down the modern rules of baseball, though is contested against for being called the inventor of baseball. He was part of the Knickerbockers base ball club, but it's entirely possible he was the secretary, as it's widely believed the rules were a group effort.

In 1857, sixteen clubs from New York City sent delegates to standardize the rules of baseball. It is agreed that they simply modified the original Knickerbockers rules.

1865 saw the ending of the Civil War, and with the return of prisoners of war saw the spread of baseball to other parts of the nation, where it quickly became popular.

The evolution of baseball as we know it today is debated by history experts and sports aficionados alike. Earliest mention of a baseball-like sport (a sport containing a bat, a ball, bases, or at least two of the three elements) being played are from the 1300s in Russia, but many variations on the idea are wide-spread. It is difficult to really track down the origins of the game, as most towns and villages had their own rules for it, mostly depending on what they had available to play with. A variation called "Cat and Dog" involved trying to get one stick - the "cat" - into a hole while the other stick - the "dog" tried to keep the cat from the hole by hitting it away. If the dog successfully batted the cat away, they would then try to get a ball into the hole.

Stool Ball was a game played in America as well as Europe, which involved a pitcher trying to hit a target with a ball, and a batter defending the target by batting the ball away. After successfully hitting the ball, the batter then runs between the bases to get to "home".

That baseball is based on English and Gaelic games such as cat, cricket, and rounders is difficult to dispute. For a time, people claimed the sport began in their country, but most of their supporting evidence was based largely on patriotism. Common theory is that there is no one origin of baseball, but rather that it is a culmination of bat, base and ball games played by children in urban settings where there were plenty of people of different origins coming together and sharing ideas.

"Vintage Baseball" - a game using the 1857 rules, modified from the Knickerbocker's rules, is still played today by hundreds of baseball clubs, some of which dedicate themselves to period reenactments by wearing the same style hats and uniforms as well as adopting the behaviors of the people of that era.

The very first all-pro baseball team was the Cincinnati Red Stockings, later called the Cincinnati Reds. It was founded as an amateur club in 1863, but became fully professional in 1869.

and

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Origins_of_baseball
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Old 09-12-2008, 09:23 PM   #4
joveski
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Default Re: Baseball or Rounders either way it was invented in the UK!!

Rounders! - i havent heard that word since primary school!
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Old 09-13-2008, 10:15 PM   #5
timetraveler
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Default Re: Baseball or Rounders either way it was invented in the UK!!

Myself, I'm not too fond of it, no matter what name it comes under. But then again, I'm also not too crazy about football(American), basketball, or any sport really.
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Old 09-14-2008, 01:02 PM   #6
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Default Re: Baseball or Rounders either way it was invented in the UK!!

I used to be a decent baseball trivia guy, back when TP came out and I still had brain cells, back when the Jays were born...I thought the answer to "where was baseball born?" was "the Elysian Fields, Hoboken, NJ"

what I DO know is that baseball died yesterday (if you're a Jay fan) with a dribbler down the first base line in "Fenway Park, Boston, MA"

you gotta love those games that have minimal rules and you can explain to someone in 2 sentences...examples are soccer and tiddly winks
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Old 09-15-2008, 02:37 PM   #7
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you gotta love those games that have minimal rules and you can explain to someone in 2 sentences...examples are soccer and tiddly winks
Ah, I believe you under estimate the human "knack" for taking something simple and making it complex. Just look at geosteve's quiz thread. It's a mess.

Last edited by RM; 09-15-2008 at 02:40 PM.
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Old 09-15-2008, 04:28 PM   #8
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It's back on track over there at QuizCentral..
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Old 10-02-2008, 06:50 PM   #9
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Default Re: Baseball or Rounders either way it was invented in the UK!!

a little more baseball info:

Chris Robinson of Ancestors in the Attic TV show on the History Channel has just notified Alt-London that Labatt Park in London, Ontario, CANADA is now listed in the Guinness Book of World Records as the World's Oldest Baseball Diamond/ Field, in operation since 1877 when it opened at the Forks of the Thames River as Tecumseh Park.

Previously, this distinction was held by Fuller Field of Clinton, Massachusetts (as of August 2007 until now), which dated back to 1878.
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Old 10-03-2008, 09:03 PM   #10
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Labatt Park in London, Ontario, CANADA is now listed in the Guinness Book of World Records as the World's Oldest Baseball Diamond/ Field
i didnt realize that...it's an hour from here... and reading this brought about a flashback...played in a tourney there about thirty years ago...we didnt do well nor did i...last AB i pinch hit with runners in scoring position and popped to third, hurray...i imagine i will relive that dim moment as i try nod off tonight...i've left quite a legacy, lol
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Old 10-03-2008, 09:10 PM   #11
charlene
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i didnt realize that...it's an hour from here... and reading this brought about a flashback...played in a tourney there about thirty years ago...we didnt do well nor did i...last AB i pinch hit with runners in scoring position and popped to third, hurray...i imagine i will relive that dim moment as i try nod off tonight...i've left quite a legacy, lol
Hey - you remembered a thirty year old event..I'm lucky if I can remember what I had for lunch..
altho I do remember that pitch in 8th grade that broke my nose..


sweet dreams...
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Old 10-03-2008, 09:41 PM   #12
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altho I do remember that pitch in 8th grade that broke my nose..
And yet people continue to subject their children to the sport. I'm also haunted by diamond memories. The strikeouts, the fielding errors, the base running blunders. It's awful
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Old 10-03-2008, 10:18 PM   #13
charlene
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And yet people continue to subject their children to the sport. I'm also haunted by diamond memories. The strikeouts, the fielding errors, the base running blunders. It's awful
but .. but .. but I still love the baseball game!!!...


and later, after things had healed I pitched again to the same girl who hit the line drive at me.. and broke her thumb..


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Old 10-03-2008, 10:29 PM   #14
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and later, after things had healed I pitched again to the same girl who hit the line drive at me.. and broke her thumb..
Yep.......a Natural Born Ringleader.
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Old 10-04-2008, 07:44 AM   #15
Jesse Joe
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Default Re: Baseball or Rounders either way it was invented in the UK!!

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but .. but .. but I still love the baseball game!!!...


and later, after things had healed I pitched again to the same girl who hit the line drive at me.. and broke her thumb..


lol ! funny !!!
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Old 10-04-2008, 09:56 AM   #16
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I'm also haunted by diamond memories
haunted, that's the verb i was looking for....i gave up hardball, too many HBPs...opted for fastball and smokin instead...a good combo, the bases are closer together

i'm reminded of baseball mishaps every day...under my chin i have to shave over a gash scar...was warming up a pitcher by squatting behind the plate and he let one get away, the 80 mph one hopper hit the plate in front of me at funny angle and missed my mit and ripped open my skin instead...am thankful i didnt lose teeth, i was certainly wearing a cup by no mask, live and learn...my whiskers are all grey around that area, i guess my chin's still stressed out over the ancient incident

great anecdote, char...explains why your nose is always out of joint (i don't even know what that means but i like to say it a lot to folks)
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Old 10-04-2008, 11:01 AM   #17
charlene
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haunted, that's the verb i was looking for....i gave up hardball, too many HBPs...opted for fastball and smokin instead...a good combo, the bases are closer together

i'm reminded of baseball mishaps every day...under my chin i have to shave over a gash scar...was warming up a pitcher by squatting behind the plate and he let one get away, the 80 mph one hopper hit the plate in front of me at funny angle and missed my mit and ripped open my skin instead...am thankful i didnt lose teeth, i was certainly wearing a cup by no mask, live and learn...my whiskers are all grey around that area, i guess my chin's still stressed out over the ancient incident

great anecdote, char...explains why your nose is always out of joint (i don't even know what that means but i like to say it a lot to folks)

glad to play straight-man..
ba-da-boom..thank ya very much..
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Old 10-07-2008, 08:32 AM   #18
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Default Re: Baseball or Rounders either way it was invented in the UK!!

Matt Stairs heads N.B. hall of fame inductees

Published Tuesday October 7th, 2008

N.B. shrine ceremony set for Oct. 25

CanadaEast News Service

FREDERICTON - Veteran major leaguer Matt Stairs heads a list of five Fredericton baseballers who will be inducted into the Baseball New Brunswick Hall of Fame Oct. 25.

Stairs, currently in the midst of the National League Division Series with the Philadelphia Phillies, the 11th major league team of his 16-year major league career, is expected to be on hand for the ceremonies.
He'll be joined among the provincial baseball immortals by the members of the 1974 national junior champion Fredericton Condors, former left-handed pitcher Ed Dunham, who pitched for 17 years in the New Brunswick Senior Baseball League and has continued his involvement in the sport as a coach, manager, umpire and administrator in a 50-year career in baseball; former junior and senior baseball star Brent Hallett, and veteran coach Mike Keating, who led the Fredericton Royals to a fifth straight New Brunswick Junior Baseball League title this past season.
Stairs, of course, began his baseball career on the Fredericton sandlots. He played in the New Brunswick Senior Baseball League at 16 and two years later, was named the league's most valuable player.
In 1988, he played for Team Canada at the world championships and was the all-star shortstop at the tournament. The Montreal Expos signed him to a contract and his baseball odyssey that has seen him become one of the most prolific Canadian players in major league history. He completed his 16th season with 13 home runs and 49 runs batted in, contributing to career totals of 254 home runs and 864 RBIs.
Stairs has also played with the Expos, the Boston Red Sox, Oakland A's, Chicago Cubs, Milwaukee Brewers, Pittsburgh Pirates, Kansas City Royals, Detroit Tigers, Texas Rangers and the Toronto Blue Jays. He had consecutive 100-plus RBI seasons with the A's in 1998 and 1999, and has hit 20 or more home runs in a season six times. This year marks the third time he has been to the post-season in his major league career.
The dinner and induction ceremonies will be held at the Fredericton Inn Oct. 25, beginning with a meet and greet from 5:30-6:45 p.m. with the dinner beginning at 7 p.m. For tickets, contact the Baseball New Brunswick office at 506-451-1329 or visit www.baseballnb.ca. Tickets cost $40 each.
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Old 10-07-2008, 11:07 AM   #19
charlene
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I wish he was still a Jay..
JJo - here's a couple of articles: read them before they go off line.

http://www.nationalpost.com/story.html?id=862278

http://www.nationalpost.com/story.html?id=862440
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Old 10-07-2008, 11:10 AM   #20
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The Guinness record is now being disputed: photo at link.
http://www.nationalpost.com/sports/story.html?id=862251

Canada’s claim to oldest baseball field ‘in limbo’
Randy Boswell, Canwest News Service
Published: Sunday, October 05, 2008

Photo courtesy City of LondonAn 1877 picture showing the Tecumseh baseball team playing against a team from Guelph, Ont., during the first year the Tecumseh Park — now called Labatt Park — was in use as a baseball field.
A controversial Canadian claim that the world's oldest baseball field can be found in London, Ont., remains "in limbo" pending an American challenge and a final ruling by Guinness World Records, says a city heritage official leading the bid for international recognition.

Labatt Park, a designated historic site at the forks of the Thames River in the southwestern Ontario city, is believed to have been used non-stop for baseball since at least 1877 - the year it was christened Tecumseh Park after the heroic War of 1812 native leader who helped Canada thwart a U.S. invasion.

But Guinness's listing last month of Labatt Park as the world's oldest ball park - on page 179 of the 2009 printing of its famous book of records - has sparked cries of protest south of the border and suggestions that Canada has "usurped" a Massachusetts community's claim to fame.

The town of Clinton, located about 50 kilometres from the historic Fenway Park, home of the Boston Red Sox, argues its diamond - Fuller Field, built in 1878 - is truly the world's oldest because its home plate and base paths have never been moved.

A severe Thames River flood in July 1883, which washed away Tecumseh Park's fencing and benches, prompted London sports officials to reorient the diamond, moving home plate so that batters would no longer have to stare into the sun while facing pitches.

Another major flood in 1937 also forced a rebuilding of the London diamond that year. Support for the project from the Labatt beer company led to the renaming of the park, which is still used today by the city's top baseball teams.

"If any old baseball diamond can qualify regardless of it is still in its original location, then Civil War prison grounds could still qualify," Clinton historian A.J. Bastarache told a Massachusetts newspaper last week. "The dispute would be endless."

His complaint to Guinness has re-opened the debate, but London is not conceding the cherished title.

Joe O'Neil, chair of London's municipal heritage advisory committee, describes the Clinton challenge on the home plate matter as a "pure technicality" and told Canwest News Service that he believes "we're sitting pretty" despite the review being undertaken by the British-based records arbiter.

"But we're not taking anything for granted," he added. "For now, it's still in limbo even though it's on the Guinness website and in three million copies of the latest records book."

He said researchers are now gathering more details to convince Guinness officials that London's claim is valid.

"We know we've got the Americans' noses out of joint because there's a feeling we're stealing the game of baseball from them," said O'Neil. "We never claimed our diamond didn't move, and we weren't trying to take away the oldest diamond record from Clinton. But we're saying ours is the oldest baseball field – the same ground, the same land."

The London claim is already backed by solid documentary evidence. There's even an 1877 picture of the park - published that year in the long-defunct Canadian Illustrated News - showing the London Tecumseh baseball club playing a visiting team from Guelph, Ont.

One hitch, though, is proving the field was used in the years immediately following the big flood of 1883 - a fact city researchers are trying to confirm from old newspapers or municipal records.

A plaque mounted at Labatt Park already boasts that the site is the world's oldest continuously operated baseball grounds.

"It's got to be worth millions of dollars in terms of tourism and publicity," said O'Neil.

A Boston Globe story published about Fuller Field last December makes clear that Clinton residents are very protective of their diamond's special status in the history of America's favourite pastime.

"It's like a real-life ‘Field of Dreams,' " municipal councillor Joseph Notaro Jr. said at the time. "It's always been a gem, a wonderful old field. But to be the oldest is just an awesome thing. There's a tremendous sense of community pride around this."

O'Neil says he doesn't begrudge Clinton its place in U.S. sports history. But he added that the bid to secure Labatt Park's spot in the record books is already fuelling an interest in further research into southwestern Ontario's seminal role in the evolution of baseball.

A vintage description of an 1838 game played in the London-area village of Beachville is already considered a key document in the early history of baseball. The 2002 unearthing of Canada's first baseball guide - published in London in 1876 - was hailed as a major discovery by Library and Archives Canada.

"If we can lock this (Guinness record) down solid," O'Neil contends, then tourists will eventually be able to drive from one historic site to another in the London area and "discover the origins of baseball."
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Old 10-07-2008, 01:56 PM   #21
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Thanks for the articles Char, Im still not over Matt not being a Blue Jay anymore. Last week in Shediac, NB. I was driving and saw a young man walking on the sidewalk with a Jays Jersey, on the back was...{ #24 Stairs} I honk my horn and wave to him, gave him a thumbs up !

Next year the Jays are going to be a team to watch for... Maybe if Stairs retires you will see him sitting in front on that {TD couch like seating w/ wife} enjoying one game as a honored guest, of his former team mates, and probably cheering them on.

I think he will always be a Jays at heart...
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Old 10-07-2008, 02:14 PM   #22
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Stairs, seen here playing for Team Canada, says he's still capable of hitting 25 homers at the big-league level. (Charles Rex Arbogast/Associated Press)
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Old 10-07-2008, 06:58 PM   #23
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those TD seats are great but ya gotta keep yer eye on the ball at all times!
love the Flashback Fridays with Jays alumni..
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Old 10-07-2008, 07:46 PM   #24
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Stairs, currently in the midst of the National League Division Series with the Philadelphia Phillies
Matt vs Manny...........GO MATT !!!
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Old 10-07-2008, 08:07 PM   #25
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If they can only make him play I'd say "Go Matt" also. Podunklander what do you say ?
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