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Old 05-03-2006, 12:40 PM   #1
vlmagee
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Even with the plight of immigrants very much in the news these days, it was a surprise to me when I read this article out of Anchorage, AK with this paragraph:

'The "golden door" is part of the welcoming inscription at the Statue of Liberty in New York harbor. But it's Canadian Gordon Lightfoot's lyrics that come to mind in the immigration upheaval: "And the house you live in will never fall down if you pity the stranger who stands at your gate."'

What is amazing to me is that - even among Lightfoot fans - it is not all that well known that "The House You Live In" is about US immigration policy. (Did somebody say that Gord writes timeless lyrics?). I have always known, but not because of any particular insight. When Gord toured in support of Summertime Dream, he usually introduced the song by saying what it was about. And that is how I first heard the song, and why I have always known.

That Anchorage newspaper has a devoted Lighthead on its staff!

The full story is here:

http://www.adn.com/opinion/story/7688798p-7600223c.html
(second story down, Golden Door)
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Old 05-03-2006, 02:13 PM   #2
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Fascinating stuff Val.I would never have guessed that factoid.It always seemed to me that it was
purely about not shutting your own door to anybody in need.
OK I guess that is the government shutting the door on would be needy immigrants....clever
And these lines are a dead giveaway too
Beware of strange faces and dark dingy places
Be careful while bending the law
I have to admit that it was not until
I watched the Reno video that I fully realised what a great song this is
John Fowles
ex Canadian Immigrant (1964)
and
ex US immigrant (2000)
Now a Citizen of both
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Old 05-03-2006, 02:42 PM   #3
charlene
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We too are having the same occurrences here with illegal immigrants who have been here for years and are now facing deportation.

Perhaps the impetus for Lightfoot's foray into the Immigration policies/motives/sensibilities (of the U.S. and Canada) was the Trudeau governments new Immigration Act of 1976. The matter had been before the public for a few years prior to being enacted. I'm sure it may have played an integral part in the tone of the song:

The Immigration Act of 1976
Overall, the tone of the 1976 legislation is more positive and more liberal in intent than the 1967 Act. As well as a means of achieving the government's demographic and economic goals, the 1976 Act represented immigration as a source of social and cultural enrichment. It expressly prohibited discrimination against immigrants, on the basis of race, national or ethnic origin, colour, religion or sex.

The 1976 Act required the government to announce in advance its planned annual intake levels. It also strengthened provisions for family reunification and, for the first time, created a separate refugee class. This policy innovation enabled the country to fulfill its international obligations in respect to refugees and began the process of regularizing Canada's previously sporadic approach to "the displaced and the persecuted".

Although the state retained considerable power to detain and deport immigrants on security and criminal grounds, the 1976 Act narrowed the grounds for exclusion and deportation.
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Old 05-03-2006, 02:58 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally posted by charlene:
demographic
Which reminded me of Jay Leno's jibe, on Tonight on Monday, against the folk South of the Border. Regarding that country's demographics, he said that in 1968,on average, women there had 7 children, nowadays they have only two because the other 5 are in the States
John Fowles
On another tack in his weekly "headlines" feature
he showed us a newspaper advert sent to him from Russia.It was for the Communist Museum
"above Mcdonalds and next to the Casino"
I think that just might be genuine
on:-
http://graphics.stanford.edu/~merrie.../photo_62.html
there is this photograph and caption:-

The museum of communism was located in between a McDonald's and a casino.
(on further investigation I found that thephotographer,Merrie only went to Prague and Berlin, so it was not in Russia
But I also found that she used what would appear to be a fine free programme to create
her online photo album see the Web Album Generator at:-
http://www.ornj.net/webalbum/

[ May 03, 2006, 15:28: Message edited by: johnfowles ]
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Old 05-03-2006, 03:39 PM   #5
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This topic could become real political, real quick.

"Beware of strange faces"
and "pity the stranger" sound incompatible to me.

Here in Tucson,AZ the immigration issue is prevalent. What are they fleeing from ? I think pressure should be placed on the Mexican government to change it's policies of greed.

The vast majority of immigrants are wonderful, industrious people...........but not all.

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Old 05-03-2006, 04:22 PM   #6
Affair on Touhy Ave.
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Of course that depends on what he's speaking about. Frankly I think the US govornment needs to crack down on Illeagal immagration. It might be far too impossable to send back those who are already here but everybody should follow the rules when comming here. I would agree with the statement in the song. Then that depends on who you're dealing with. Some people you help will take advantage of you and the system and some will do their best when helped out.
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Old 05-03-2006, 05:09 PM   #7
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Let's face it, Gord never, ever, spent a day in the US, or earned a dollar here that was not in compliance with US laws. If anyone has any evidence to the contrary, let us know. My point is, Gord has appeared to respect US entry laws. End of story as far as I'm concerned.
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Old 05-03-2006, 05:29 PM   #8
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Hey look! Touhy's talking about something not Lightfoot related! :D
Okay,cheap shot. Just playing T.

Anyway,the Govt. needs to crack down is not a new thought. Illeagals have been coming here for who knows how long. Not just from Mexico but other countries too.

The difference though is that Mexican illeagals get treated far worse than say people from Asia,Europe and so forth. If being illeagal is such a crime,then they should arrest them as well as Mexican nationals. I of course know that arresting anyone for this is not the answer to th problem.

The answer has always lied in just re-organizing how immigration works for people from Mexico but make it count for those of other countries as well.
If people from south of the border could simply become citizens without having to wait an eternity for it,then I think trying sneak over the border would lessen.

It really should only take a few months to make a clear decision on letting someone be a citizen and to have them take the standard test and pledge. Until any of that happens,our country will have this problem for years or even decades to come.

Especially when you consider the hypocrisy of hiring illeagls but up until the possibilty of the new immigration law,no one really gave it a thought or cared. Now everyone's yelling & screaming about it. Why? We all knew that employers hired illeagals,so why maske an issue of it now?

To me it's just the Bush administration throwing up a smoke scren to the real issues,that has now back-fired on them. That's why I feel in this case those workers have every right to be mad.

They're not criminals (except for those who truly are),they just want a better life and America has always said,"We're the greatest country on Earth.

Gee,can't believe someone called us on that! Later!
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Old 05-03-2006, 09:41 PM   #9
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Wow, I never knew that's what "The House You Live In" was about, nor would I have ever guessed it!

Amazing. This now adds an entirely new dimension to this song.

And that is ALL I'm going to say about this, or else I am bound to get myself in trouble!

Thanks for the link to the article, Valerie.
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Old 05-04-2006, 06:22 AM   #10
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Naturalization (becoming a US Citizen) is a multi-step process. You don't have to become a citizen to live here legally but you do have to go through the immigration process, apply for and be granted resident alien status. My husband moved here from Canada in 1980 and has yet to become a US Citizen, though he pays his taxes like everybody else, but he did come in legally on a K-1 petition (fiance)and got his green card (they're not green any more, btw.) Permanent Resident Card, which is commonly known as a Green Card, is evidence of status as a lawful permanent resident with a right to live and to work permanently in the United States, to travel in and out of the counrty without a visa, to work at any job, and to accumulate time toward U.S. citizenship. It also is evidence of registration in accordance with the United States immigration laws. The Permanent Resident Card is also called Form I-551. The U.S. admits about 900,000 legal immigrants annually.


Full naturalization requires :
a period of continuous residence and physical presence in the United States (3-5 years);
residence in a particular USCIS District prior to filing;
an ability to read, write, and speak English;
a knowledge and understanding of U.S. history and government;
good moral character;
attachment to the principles of the U.S. Constitution; and,
favorable disposition toward the United States.
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Old 05-04-2006, 01:30 PM   #11
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Without trying to sound too political...
I think Borderstone has it right specifically regarding Mexican immigrants. Somehow, I think if there were a wave of immigration, illegal or otherwise, from our other border, people would not
be making much of it. This has much to do with our tangled and often racist and hypocritical behaviors towards Spanish-speakers; it goes all the way back to pre-American history (I'm sure John Fowles and others will back me up when I say that the relationship between Spain and England during imperial times was hostile and caused much mud-slinging from both sides, and that this attitude carried over into the colonies).
The immigration question is a complex and unimaginably difficult one to solve, and I say this from both sides of the border. I have many Mexican friends and colleagues, and I love Mexico, for all its flaws; I've lived in and travelled to many parts of country, and have taken groups of students to share my enthusiasm. Mexican politics and the corruption of the elites in government and business, however, have undermined what could have been exponential economic growth and political enfranchisement for all sectors of the population for the past 30 years and more--leading instead to a loss of hope, and a desire to find a better life elsewhere.
On our side of the fence, there is much that we've done wrong, and little that we've done right. Should immigration laws be followed as closely as possible? Surprisingly, I agree with Touhy that they should--or else they should be repealed. Why have laws on the books that nobody enforces? Now, why should immigrants have to follow the law? That should be self-explanatory, just as I would expect to have to follow the laws of whatever country I was in. If I were to seek employment in Mexico, I would naturally expect to follow Mexican protocol.
Is it feasible to expel up to 11 million immigrants? Probably not, any more than it would be feasible to locate and expel 11 million atoms of air.
How did it get to be a problem in the first place, from our side of things? Well, this is, I think, where we show our own hypocrisy. Some of the same people who are now shouting the loudest (mostly mostly white folks from both the upper classes and the lower classes) are precisely the ones who have benefited from lax immigration laws in the short run, but may suffer in the long run. Everyday people, as well as the well-to-do, haven't complained about farm and factory workers who are immigrants, because they are paying less for fruits and vegetables, or manufactured goods, for example, than they would be if these industries had to hire people at a truly fair wage. The whole immigration wave has been described by people both on the left and the right as a "huge welfare program for big business and agrobusiness"--these companies pay substandard wages with no overtime and no benefits, saving them billions in profits, while the populace at large has to foot the bill for needed social, medical and education services for the immigrant population. In the long run, this also depresses wages for working-class people.
One proposed solution, if we really mean what we say: how about cracking down, with serious fines and jail sentences, on those who are employing illegal immigrants, instead of looking the other way because some of our largest businesses (from Wal-Mart to Tyson Foods and many others)are employing illegals? How about serious penalties for the well-to-do who hire domestic and groundskeeping help when they know they are hiring undocumented workers? If there were really a will to do this, much of the problem would dry up, but then we'd be talking about putting "respectable" white people in jail, when it's much easier to blame the poor people of color. Although I think laws should be obeyed, I personally am less troubled by people who in desperation try to circumvent a rule to make a life for themselves (I have seen first-hand how hard-working most of the migrants are, both from Mexico and from other lands--from Vietnam and Laos, from Poland and Russia, etc.), than I am by those who are already comfortable trying to use their position to circumvent the law and save themselves even more money, to the society's detriment.
Again, this is not a political statement in terms of liberalism or conservatism; I think both sides are somewhat right and also fundamentally mistaken. We need to rethink the whole thing.
If anyone is offended by the statements I've made, or if you think we should delete this post and others for its political content, I understand. Is there a way of moving the whole topic to the "Small Talk" part of the forum?

Regards to all,
DQ

[ May 05, 2006, 11:29: Message edited by: Don Quixote ]
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Old 05-04-2006, 05:59 PM   #12
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Well said, DQ.
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Old 05-04-2006, 06:41 PM   #13
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I think that maybe the people who posted purely political comments, and really didn't talk about the song, might themselves delete their posts. If you do a copy first, you can then repost your message(s) in a new thread in Small Talk. That would make things easier for the moderators, and would enable people who want to talk about the song and Lightfoot to read about it here, and people who want to talk about immigration itself, read about it in Small Talk.

I didn't mean to start a political discussion. When that happens in a thread I started I am always tempted to delete the thread, but I hate to do that.
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Old 05-04-2006, 08:22 PM   #14
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About the song...
It's an interesting take about it being about the Canadian immigration issue, although I wonder if that was the true or whole reason that it was written; sometimes it seems you get a whole lot more of information from the songs than from the man, which is OK by me.

I've always wondered about some of the wry and/or contradictory parts of the song. People have often, on this site, seen it as a sort of "philosophy of life" song; I've always seen it as kind of cynical, especially given the atmosphere of the mid-to-late '70s, the Watergate stuff, the scandals in the House of Representatives, etc. The hypocritical attitudes towards immigration would actually fit in well here, too. "Beware of strange faces and dark, dingy places/Be careful while bending the law" is hardly a moral compass, and "the song that you sing should not be too sad and be sure not to sing it too slow"--in other words, keep things upbeat no matter how you're truly feeling or what you're trying to say--doesn't seem to work as a way of life. As to immigration right now, one could certainly relate it to what's happening right now, as far as "bending the law" on both sides of the border, as I stated in my earlier post. I always half took (that is I 50% considered, not Touhy-speak for "I have taken")the song as an admonition to the legislature (the "house") for its two-faced attitudes--keep outward appearances looking on the up-and-up ("beware of the darkness, be kind to your children, remember the woman who waits"; "be calm in the face of all common disgraces and know what they're doing it for"), while looking out for your own venal interests ("decide what it is that you need; is it money, or love, or learning to live, or is it the mouth you must feed?"), and deceiving the public (not "be candid", but "be known as a man who will always be candid ON QUESTIONS THAT DO NOT RELATE"--it sounds like "be evasive about what you mean, and try to steer things elsewhere"--that's one thing GL is a master at!!).
Sorry if my political spiel overcame the talk about the song. I'll try to move it to the "Small Talk" area when I get a chance, if you like; some of the other posts should probably be moved as well.

DQ
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Old 05-04-2006, 08:23 PM   #15
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That's what I was going to suggest Val!
It started out about the song and how it may have come to be....then off things went...but I may say things are quite civil!
lol
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Old 05-05-2006, 09:02 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally posted by charlene (Most Honorable Moderator and Member 315):
That's what I was going to suggest Val!
It started out about the song and how it may have come to be....then off things went...but I may say things are quite civil!
lol
I think the various postings have in general been interesting it has great relevance to GL and sure opened my eyes to the meaning of another great song and IMHO it would be therefore a shame to delete this topic and the chances are that not everybody who contributed would save and repost if it were simply restarted in small talk.
I cannot help noticing that at the foot of the panel for every topic is a link enticingly entitled "move topic"
when clicked this message pops up
"Only administrators or moderators may perform this action."
So dare I suggest that our Charming Moderator person finds out how she can use this function.
If not for this particular topic at least it can be added to her toolbox for future use as and when appropriate
John Fowles
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Old 05-05-2006, 11:12 AM   #17
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I have used the MOVE TOPIC and DELETE function before because posts became ugly.

Moving the topic isn't the answer as the topic began as and is Lightfoot related.

However subsequent posts (very well articulated and quite interesting!) veered slightly off the topic and can be moved if necessary.
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Old 05-05-2006, 04:44 PM   #18
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I'm with Char,unles this turns ugly (and I highly doubt that)I think were doing fine.

As for the song,I always thougt Gord should have tried to sound a little less tired on it. I don't feel a great energy from the song when I listen to it. Great message,needs a more optomistic tone to it though.
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Old 05-05-2006, 05:05 PM   #19
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I will leave the immigration issue well alone.
Australia shares borders only with fish so for me to even offer a comment would be presumptious - (and possibly judgemental). Plus the issue is for small talk at max. or maybe even a political site IMO.
What I wanted to say was to thank Val for providing the added dimension to the lyrics to what is one of my absolute top 10ers of all of Gords songs.
That the song had a message that if you were merciful and not judgemental you would keep your own house in order , was clear enough to me. Emotionally I took on the lyrics in a general all comers sense.

That it related to immigration is news to me (I was slightly wrong about it's meaning for nearly 30 years lol), and I am pleased to know a bit more about that tune . Thanks again Val !
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Old 05-05-2006, 07:07 PM   #20
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Just a thought....I wonder if the original article posted by Val Magee was just someone extracting lyrics from a Lightfoot song to bolster their polical position, although Charlene's historical perspective gives pause to that reasoning.

However, let's say I am illegal immigrant supporter and then use the lyrics from Johnny Cash's "I Walk The Line"

"I keep my eyes wide open all the time"
"I keep the ends out for the ties that bind"

I hope that song had nothing to do with immigration (or else I need to be institutionalized).

Just a thought,

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