Gordon Lightfoot Forums - View Single Post - Do you think the song ',For Lovin Me,' is chauvinistic?

geodeticman · 07-09-2006, 06:10 AM

Sydney Steve - LOL you are in no danger of winning the dubious award of "overly verbose, tedious, and lengthy" posts ! I believe I am at least a strong contender in that, a lot in this one, but less in general lately than historically !

For what its worth, despite my posts growing somewhat more succinct here and there.... I've had nothing but very kind notes sent regarding my longer posts.

Exceptions to that in open forum were rare; the few complaints I had while especially re-learning my typing reflected far worse of the sender with the thread participants, generally speaking. I enjoyed your "longer post" ! LOL your self-deprecating humour is not lost...

Another tack historically, for what its worth on the meaning of chauvinistic, I vaguely recalled from school the source being a man named Chauvin, whom I anticipated would have been a big womanizer when I looked it up. Quite the opposite..hoowee to wit

-------------------------------------------------
following verbatim from Wikipedia: [historical]
-------------------------------------------------
Nicolas Chauvin
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Jump to: navigation, search
Nicolas Chauvin (possibly b. Rochefort, France, c. 1790) was a semi-mythical soldier and patriot who served in the First Army of the French Republic and subsequently in La Grande Armee of Napoleon Bonaparte. His name is the origin of the term chauvinism.
----------------------------------end Wikipedia

It [Wikipedia] goes on to explain that the term came to be used as a person of excessive nationalism or mis-placed patriotism. He also was a fervent, sycophantic follower who idolized Napolean.

So, the word's historical definition [denotation] was not one of disdain and user/abuser of women per se ,but a term later attributed to political excess and generally considered pejorative from the start, it would appear.

However, its current [connotation] seems to be highly variable gauging from all the above responses ! LOL

Clearly though its usage has undergone spontaneous mutagenesis to reflect a false sense of male superiority as I read it.

My opinion JJ: Given that in so much modern pop music you can't even distinguish the lyrics enought to begin debating the merit, I applaud GL's lyrics being intelligable, if not ALWAYS admirable (who is ?). Yes, I think [the lyrics] are chauvinistic, not Gord.

I'd simply point out to augment the songbook comment by GL a mention he made of it in concert I attended in Denver, almost apologetically to the audience, while obviously amused by the over-examination of what could be an entirely fictitious scenario [i.e. are we to assume all songs are about Lightfoot when not explicity so ?] :

- paraphrasing "this was in my early days and is clearly chauvinistic in nature, but was simply [about] a temporary less-than-admirable fleeting thought that became a [good] song".

He added "I do NOT feel this way about women, perhaps I did a few times back then, but this song is NOT based on an experience of mine, but I s'pose could 'a been [self-deprecating grin and utterings while audience laughed].

[again, to best of my memory] he continued "BUT... I like to play it now with the contrasting more admirable take I s'pose of "Did She Mention My Name" following [explaining then how how a young man full of pi** and vinegar in the 1st song could change over time to the more gentlemanly approach toward woman in the 2nd song, and hence how he liked to tempor the excesses of the 1st with the 2nd in the medley].

So, while apparently not autobiographical from those comments alone at that concert, he still felt it of value to make clear his own evolution of growing respect for women over the years by forming the medley. But, he was not overly concerned about it..as in "its just a SONG" ...

I think as fans of his, we are typically accustomed to his songs being more than just enjoyable little ditties you can whistle, but rather genuine works of art and poetry. Once in awhile, however, it seems he is posessed of writing a song that is in fact the former.[why not?].. and fun to him he said, which is cool with me....

And Jessie-Joe - I think Gloria meant a slightly different way regarding mid-70'S GL than you did when you agreed somewhat. - Gloria: meant tastefully in the best of ways, and Jessie: all in good fun

So Sydney, I have relieved you I think of the burden in this thread anyway of the longest post distinction you had the good nature to mention ...but my goal was not that [to best you]at all...LOL. Rather, to communicate what I thought of the subject at hand...and in neat little paragraphs !

Rickv - good point, I don't recall it being gender specific.
geo Steve

[ July 09, 2006, 06:44: Message edited by: geodeticman ]

07-09-2006, 06:10 AM	#30
geodeticman Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Colorado Rockies- Rampart Range Posts: 261	Sydney Steve - LOL you are in no danger of winning the dubious award of "overly verbose, tedious, and lengthy" posts ! I believe I am at least a strong contender in that, a lot in this one, but less in general lately than historically ! For what its worth, despite my posts growing somewhat more succinct here and there.... I've had nothing but very kind notes sent regarding my longer posts. Exceptions to that in open forum were rare; the few complaints I had while especially re-learning my typing reflected far worse of the sender with the thread participants, generally speaking. I enjoyed your "longer post" ! LOL your self-deprecating humour is not lost... Another tack historically, for what its worth on the meaning of chauvinistic, I vaguely recalled from school the source being a man named Chauvin, whom I anticipated would have been a big womanizer when I looked it up. Quite the opposite..hoowee to wit ------------------------------------------------- following verbatim from Wikipedia: [historical] ------------------------------------------------- Nicolas Chauvin From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia Jump to: navigation, search Nicolas Chauvin (possibly b. Rochefort, France, c. 1790) was a semi-mythical soldier and patriot who served in the First Army of the French Republic and subsequently in La Grande Armee of Napoleon Bonaparte. His name is the origin of the term chauvinism. ----------------------------------end Wikipedia It [Wikipedia] goes on to explain that the term came to be used as a person of excessive nationalism or mis-placed patriotism. He also was a fervent, sycophantic follower who idolized Napolean. So, the word's historical definition [denotation] was not one of disdain and user/abuser of women per se ,but a term later attributed to political excess and generally considered pejorative from the start, it would appear. However, its current [connotation] seems to be highly variable gauging from all the above responses ! LOL Clearly though its usage has undergone spontaneous mutagenesis to reflect a false sense of male superiority as I read it. My opinion JJ: Given that in so much modern pop music you can't even distinguish the lyrics enought to begin debating the merit, I applaud GL's lyrics being intelligable, if not ALWAYS admirable (who is ?). Yes, I think [the lyrics] are chauvinistic, not Gord. I'd simply point out to augment the songbook comment by GL a mention he made of it in concert I attended in Denver, almost apologetically to the audience, while obviously amused by the over-examination of what could be an entirely fictitious scenario [i.e. are we to assume all songs are about Lightfoot when not explicity so ?] : - paraphrasing "this was in my early days and is clearly chauvinistic in nature, but was simply [about] a temporary less-than-admirable fleeting thought that became a [good] song". He added "I do NOT feel this way about women, perhaps I did a few times back then, but this song is NOT based on an experience of mine, but I s'pose could 'a been [self-deprecating grin and utterings while audience laughed]. [again, to best of my memory] he continued "BUT... I like to play it now with the contrasting more admirable take I s'pose of "Did She Mention My Name" following [explaining then how how a young man full of pi** and vinegar in the 1st song could change over time to the more gentlemanly approach toward woman in the 2nd song, and hence how he liked to tempor the excesses of the 1st with the 2nd in the medley]. So, while apparently not autobiographical from those comments alone at that concert, he still felt it of value to make clear his own evolution of growing respect for women over the years by forming the medley. But, he was not overly concerned about it..as in "its just a SONG" ... I think as fans of his, we are typically accustomed to his songs being more than just enjoyable little ditties you can whistle, but rather genuine works of art and poetry. Once in awhile, however, it seems he is posessed of writing a song that is in fact the former.[why not?].. and fun to him he said, which is cool with me.... And Jessie-Joe - I think Gloria meant a slightly different way regarding mid-70'S GL than you did when you agreed somewhat. - Gloria: meant tastefully in the best of ways, and Jessie: all in good fun So Sydney, I have relieved you I think of the burden in this thread anyway of the longest post distinction you had the good nature to mention ...but my goal was not that [to best you]at all...LOL. Rather, to communicate what I thought of the subject at hand...and in neat little paragraphs ! Rickv - good point, I don't recall it being gender specific. geo Steve [ July 09, 2006, 06:44: Message edited by: geodeticman ]