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Don Quixote · 05-04-2006, 01:30 PM

Without trying to sound too political...
I think Borderstone has it right specifically regarding Mexican immigrants. Somehow, I think if there were a wave of immigration, illegal or otherwise, from our other border, people would not
be making much of it. This has much to do with our tangled and often racist and hypocritical behaviors towards Spanish-speakers; it goes all the way back to pre-American history (I'm sure John Fowles and others will back me up when I say that the relationship between Spain and England during imperial times was hostile and caused much mud-slinging from both sides, and that this attitude carried over into the colonies).
The immigration question is a complex and unimaginably difficult one to solve, and I say this from both sides of the border. I have many Mexican friends and colleagues, and I love Mexico, for all its flaws; I've lived in and travelled to many parts of country, and have taken groups of students to share my enthusiasm. Mexican politics and the corruption of the elites in government and business, however, have undermined what could have been exponential economic growth and political enfranchisement for all sectors of the population for the past 30 years and more--leading instead to a loss of hope, and a desire to find a better life elsewhere.
On our side of the fence, there is much that we've done wrong, and little that we've done right. Should immigration laws be followed as closely as possible? Surprisingly, I agree with Touhy that they should--or else they should be repealed. Why have laws on the books that nobody enforces? Now, why should immigrants have to follow the law? That should be self-explanatory, just as I would expect to have to follow the laws of whatever country I was in. If I were to seek employment in Mexico, I would naturally expect to follow Mexican protocol.
Is it feasible to expel up to 11 million immigrants? Probably not, any more than it would be feasible to locate and expel 11 million atoms of air.
How did it get to be a problem in the first place, from our side of things? Well, this is, I think, where we show our own hypocrisy. Some of the same people who are now shouting the loudest (mostly mostly white folks from both the upper classes and the lower classes) are precisely the ones who have benefited from lax immigration laws in the short run, but may suffer in the long run. Everyday people, as well as the well-to-do, haven't complained about farm and factory workers who are immigrants, because they are paying less for fruits and vegetables, or manufactured goods, for example, than they would be if these industries had to hire people at a truly fair wage. The whole immigration wave has been described by people both on the left and the right as a "huge welfare program for big business and agrobusiness"--these companies pay substandard wages with no overtime and no benefits, saving them billions in profits, while the populace at large has to foot the bill for needed social, medical and education services for the immigrant population. In the long run, this also depresses wages for working-class people.
One proposed solution, if we really mean what we say: how about cracking down, with serious fines and jail sentences, on those who are employing illegal immigrants, instead of looking the other way because some of our largest businesses (from Wal-Mart to Tyson Foods and many others)are employing illegals? How about serious penalties for the well-to-do who hire domestic and groundskeeping help when they know they are hiring undocumented workers? If there were really a will to do this, much of the problem would dry up, but then we'd be talking about putting "respectable" white people in jail, when it's much easier to blame the poor people of color. Although I think laws should be obeyed, I personally am less troubled by people who in desperation try to circumvent a rule to make a life for themselves (I have seen first-hand how hard-working most of the migrants are, both from Mexico and from other lands--from Vietnam and Laos, from Poland and Russia, etc.), than I am by those who are already comfortable trying to use their position to circumvent the law and save themselves even more money, to the society's detriment.
Again, this is not a political statement in terms of liberalism or conservatism; I think both sides are somewhat right and also fundamentally mistaken. We need to rethink the whole thing.
If anyone is offended by the statements I've made, or if you think we should delete this post and others for its political content, I understand. Is there a way of moving the whole topic to the "Small Talk" part of the forum?

Regards to all,
DQ

[ May 05, 2006, 11:29: Message edited by: Don Quixote ]

05-04-2006, 01:30 PM	#11
Don Quixote Senior Member Join Date: May 2004 Location: Springfield, MA 01109 Posts: 309	Without trying to sound too political... I think Borderstone has it right specifically regarding Mexican immigrants. Somehow, I think if there were a wave of immigration, illegal or otherwise, from our other border, people would not be making much of it. This has much to do with our tangled and often racist and hypocritical behaviors towards Spanish-speakers; it goes all the way back to pre-American history (I'm sure John Fowles and others will back me up when I say that the relationship between Spain and England during imperial times was hostile and caused much mud-slinging from both sides, and that this attitude carried over into the colonies). The immigration question is a complex and unimaginably difficult one to solve, and I say this from both sides of the border. I have many Mexican friends and colleagues, and I love Mexico, for all its flaws; I've lived in and travelled to many parts of country, and have taken groups of students to share my enthusiasm. Mexican politics and the corruption of the elites in government and business, however, have undermined what could have been exponential economic growth and political enfranchisement for all sectors of the population for the past 30 years and more--leading instead to a loss of hope, and a desire to find a better life elsewhere. On our side of the fence, there is much that we've done wrong, and little that we've done right. Should immigration laws be followed as closely as possible? Surprisingly, I agree with Touhy that they should--or else they should be repealed. Why have laws on the books that nobody enforces? Now, why should immigrants have to follow the law? That should be self-explanatory, just as I would expect to have to follow the laws of whatever country I was in. If I were to seek employment in Mexico, I would naturally expect to follow Mexican protocol. Is it feasible to expel up to 11 million immigrants? Probably not, any more than it would be feasible to locate and expel 11 million atoms of air. How did it get to be a problem in the first place, from our side of things? Well, this is, I think, where we show our own hypocrisy. Some of the same people who are now shouting the loudest (mostly mostly white folks from both the upper classes and the lower classes) are precisely the ones who have benefited from lax immigration laws in the short run, but may suffer in the long run. Everyday people, as well as the well-to-do, haven't complained about farm and factory workers who are immigrants, because they are paying less for fruits and vegetables, or manufactured goods, for example, than they would be if these industries had to hire people at a truly fair wage. The whole immigration wave has been described by people both on the left and the right as a "huge welfare program for big business and agrobusiness"--these companies pay substandard wages with no overtime and no benefits, saving them billions in profits, while the populace at large has to foot the bill for needed social, medical and education services for the immigrant population. In the long run, this also depresses wages for working-class people. One proposed solution, if we really mean what we say: how about cracking down, with serious fines and jail sentences, on those who are employing illegal immigrants, instead of looking the other way because some of our largest businesses (from Wal-Mart to Tyson Foods and many others)are employing illegals? How about serious penalties for the well-to-do who hire domestic and groundskeeping help when they know they are hiring undocumented workers? If there were really a will to do this, much of the problem would dry up, but then we'd be talking about putting "respectable" white people in jail, when it's much easier to blame the poor people of color. Although I think laws should be obeyed, I personally am less troubled by people who in desperation try to circumvent a rule to make a life for themselves (I have seen first-hand how hard-working most of the migrants are, both from Mexico and from other lands--from Vietnam and Laos, from Poland and Russia, etc.), than I am by those who are already comfortable trying to use their position to circumvent the law and save themselves even more money, to the society's detriment. Again, this is not a political statement in terms of liberalism or conservatism; I think both sides are somewhat right and also fundamentally mistaken. We need to rethink the whole thing. If anyone is offended by the statements I've made, or if you think we should delete this post and others for its political content, I understand. Is there a way of moving the whole topic to the "Small Talk" part of the forum? Regards to all, DQ [ May 05, 2006, 11:29: Message edited by: Don Quixote ]