http://www.colorradio.com/Pictures/f...r_lovin_me.gif
Do you think the Gordon Lightfoot song,"For Lovin Me," is chauvinistic? :( In the 60's, 'The Women's Right' movement, gaved him "heck" about that song. He told an interviewer, that he still performs it today on occasion. He said, "It's a good one, it depends on how you look at it"... :) For Lovin' Me, ©1966 by Gordon Lightfoot That's what you get for lovin' me That's what you get for lovin' me Everything you had is gone, as you can see That's what you get for lovin' me I ain't the kind to hang around With any new love that I've found 'Cause movin is my stock 'n trade, I'm moving on I won't think of you when I'm gone So don't you shed a tear for me 'Cause I ain't the love you thought I'd be I've got a hundred more like you, so don't be blue I'll have a thousand 'fore I'm through Now there you go you've cried again Now there you go you've cried again But then some day when your poor heart is on the mend I just might pass this way again That's what you get for lovin' me That's what you get for lovin' me Everything you had is gone, as you can see That's what you get for lovin' me That's what you get for lovin' me [ July 11, 2006, 05:47: Message edited by: Jesse -Joe ] |
JJ,
It is what it is - a great song - let them say what they will, LOL. Bill :) |
I agree BILLW. Are you at the pool today? It sure is warm down here... :rolleyes: :)
[ July 08, 2006, 10:43: Message edited by: Jesse -Joe ] |
Nope - don't think it is.
A person stating who he is, what he believes, how he feels about love, intimacy, relationships and is up front about all of it is honest. A most welcome trait. From that honesty the other person can decide what relationship, if any will occur with full knowledge of who they're dealing with. I wonder what would have been said had it been a woman singing those words.... ;) |
It is a chauvinistic song, though. He admits it in the songbook. Of course, it could be about the end of a bad relationship, and he's telling her to get the h*ll on.
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Could have only been answered, by the true Lightfoot fan that you are Charlene... Very Good.
This might be of some interest to someone who never saw an article I read on Macleans Magazine, May 1, 1978. "Lightfoot can boast a sprawling mansion in Toronto's Rosedale, a Cadillac convertible, membership in the pricey Cambridge Club, two sailboats (the 35-foot Sundown and the 45-foot Golden Goose), even-much less welcome- the distinction of one of the highest settlements in Canadian history for his 1973 divorce ($150,000 cash and $4,500 a month for his ex-wife Brita)." And from the book, 'If You Could Read His Mind'. After the verdict, his ex-wifes lawyer walking away, turns to Mr. Lightfoot and says; " That's what you get for lovin Me"... :) :eek: [ July 08, 2006, 16:24: Message edited by: Jesse -Joe ] |
Gord himself said it was chauvinistic. Nothing wrong with that. Everybody at one time or another has felt that way towards the opposite sex.
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http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d1...h_ec2ff9ec.jpg Bill :) [ July 08, 2006, 08:37: Message edited by: BILLW ] |
Hey Bill, that's my job too (more or less)! I've been in and out of that club for the past 17 years. How long have you been at it?
Oh, and as far as the song goes, I agree that it's more honest and upfront than anything else. It's also fun to listen to the coupling of "Did She Mention My Name", which has more of a regetful twist. I love the opposite emotions the two songs conjure up. |
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Bill :) |
While Mr. Lightfoot himself may have thought his song chauvinistic I answered the question as asked. ("Do you think the Gordon Lightfoot song,"For Lovin Me," is chauvinistic?")
I did not and do not think it is. If chauvinism means being honest about how you will treat someone, good or bad, male or female, then perhaps it is. I doubt it tho. |
Charlene,
I tend to disagree with your assumption that the lyrics imply that the person is being forthright about their intentions. I hear just the opposite. I always thought it was presented in an after-the-fact fashion. Someone is "used" and then abandoned, with no remorse on the part of the one leaving. RMD |
Bob Dylan once said, "For Lovin Me, I just wish I had written that song." :eek:
From the Gordon Lightfoot songbook: For Lovin' Me. In later years I realized that was the most chauvinistic song ever written, but never-the lest Peter Yarrow (of Peter, Paul & Mary) saw something in it, a tongue-in-cheek sort of approach to the situation. Fortunately for me, it became a big hit. I am happy also to have been a part of their entourage for a short while. It was their recording, along with Ian & Sylvia's help, that opened some doors in New York city that got me where I needed to be. >>>>>>>>>>>>&g t;>>>>>>>>>>>> >><<<<<<<<<<&l t;<<<<<<< <<<<<<<<<< That's what the writer of this beautiful song's opinion is. :rolleyes: Now the question is, Do {YOU} think the song For Lovin' Me is chauvinistic? Every one is entitled to there opinion. Come on guys, for Lightfoot's sake! :) :D [ July 08, 2006, 10:51: Message edited by: Jesse -Joe ] |
Jesse-Joe,
Just in case my previous post was not clear.... Yes, I think it is Chauvinistic. RMD |
That's good my man, that's your opinion, and it was clear. :)
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Jesse-Joe,
Yes, you were wrong. There was no argument brewing. I was simply stating that I hear the song as being in the past tense, rather than a warning to others that might appear in the future. RMD |
Chauvinistic? You bet. But I would have thought it worthwhile just to be with him, say in the mid seventies…
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Chauvinistic? You bet. But I would have thought it worthwhile just to be with him, say in the mid seventies…
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Same thought as me Gloria. Gordon Lightfoot his music, and his life in general appeared more, way more interesting in the 70's.
Dont know what I would give, to have been with him on his drinking days. The partys that went on, every other night, as he told his good friend, Murray McLauchlan . "Playing between 16,000 to 18,000 people at a time, and were selling out." He is cool today, but what a cool cat in those days. As I have many a concert, and interviews, of him while him not being totaly sober. :) |
Same thought as me Gloria. Gordon Lightfoot his music, and his life in general appeared more, way more interesting in the 70's.
Dont know what I would give, to have been with him on his drinking days. The partys that went on, every other night, as he told his good friend, Murray McLauchlan . "Playing between 16,000 to 18,000 people at a time, and were selling out." He is cool today, but what a cool cat in those days. As I have many a concert, and interviews, of him while him not being totaly sober. :) |
Actually,I think the most chauvanistic song ever written had to be Bobby Sherman's,"Little Woman".
Most Chauv. line in the song;Quote:"Little Woman,leave your world behind and come into mine". :eek: In other words,give up everything about herself and rest all of her hopes dreams,desires on a relationship with him. :rolleyes: He's the "man" after all. :rolleyes: Ugh! As for Gordon,his song is chavanistic,no doubt,but a lot of songwriters back then were. In most songs,when a love and/or relationship ends(no matter what the reason) it's always "her" fault. She'll always be the sorry one and he'll be perfectly fine and find another (or more) almost immedietly. [img]tongue.gif[/img] Glad those kind of lyrics are gone! :) |
Gordon Lightfoot's "Go MY Way", from, 'Summer Side Of Life.'
"Go my way, it's the only way to go." |
Gordon Lightfoot's "Go MY Way", from, 'Summer Side Of Life.'
"Go my way, it's the only way to go." |
Well I don't in the sense I understand the word. In fact I went scurrying for the dictionary to confirm my understanding of it. The dictionaries I looked at supported the view it is not chauvinistic.
The meaning that appears to be meant to apply are these from a few different online sources includes : * Prejudiced belief in the superiority of one's own gender, group, or kind: * activity indicative of belief in the superiority of men over women * undue partiality or attachment to a group or place to which one belongs or has belonged * an attitude of superiority toward members of the opposite sex; also : behavior expressive of such an attitude Just because Gord stated it was chauvinistic merely shows he is not truly aware of what chauvinism is. He's an entertainer not a linguist. Nothing in it conveys a view of superiority of any group over another and not of men over women . The song does not exactly display the nicest of sentiments but it conveys a sort of "I am not totally to blame here -you picked me" type sentiment...(Some would argue a cop-out and a rather petulant, self centred view), but even that would depend on whether said gal had been made aware at the outset of the singers failings. But then there is a different way to look at it too which may be hinted at in this verse: Quote:
When all said and done though it is not an autobiographical song - rather an observation of a slice of life & people and should not be confused as it being some sort of reflection of Gord's personal views or life... PS If we are talking chauvinism I would say the lyrics from 14 Karat Gold is a better example...The whole tenure of the song treats the woman as a valuable possession - "She's more than money ,Shes 14 Karat Gold.." (Which might I add is not a very precious grade of gold!) lol... But hey its just a song ..I recall singing "I am Woman" heartily...still do (on the quiet) if the truth be told...but anatomically/psychologically it may not be quite accurate... *Stevo's entry in the overly verbose,tedious and lengthy post competition* which has a number of worthy and willing participants I note... ;) |
Sidney Steve,
Congratulations ! You have won the contest. I could not decipher an answer from your post. So.... In your veiw is the song Chauvinistic or not ? RMD |
Ummm.... no...
<*In the light of this wishes he entered in the slightly more prestigious category of "Most unintelligible post" * > |
Sidney Steve,
I meant no offense. Congratulations again ! RMD |
Chauvinistic? Maybe, but the song isn't gender specific is it?
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Though I’m normally reluctant to participate in discussions concerning the intent behind lyrics I did not write, I do know this song well, if only having listened to it so often in younger days.
It has never come across to me as chauvinistic … but if one were to draw that conclusion and assume that the emotions were tied to attitudes from men TO women, I can appreciate the sentiment … i.e. “There you go, you cried again” … it is hard to imagine how that line (alone) sounds in the least bit convincing if it was directed toward a male audience. I hasten to add by a female .... then again and these days ….. I will never think of the lyrics as anything other than “protected arrogance” … something one might say, write or think …. for a defence against a perceived personal attack that might never take place. Therein lies my dislike of reading liner notes …. don’t break your silence, don’t betray my beliefs or understanding of what emotions played part in either your head whilst composing the song, or in mine when I felt compelled to purchase it ..... Just tell me if I ask you. Mike :) [ July 09, 2006, 11:18: Message edited by: Mike Dixon ] |
Sydney Steve - LOL you are in no danger of winning the dubious award of "overly verbose, tedious, and lengthy" posts ! I believe I am at least a strong contender in that, a lot in this one, but less in general lately than historically !
For what its worth, despite my posts growing somewhat more succinct here and there.... I've had nothing but very kind notes sent regarding my longer posts. Exceptions to that in open forum were rare; the few complaints I had while especially re-learning my typing reflected far worse of the sender with the thread participants, generally speaking. I enjoyed your "longer post" ! LOL your self-deprecating humour is not lost... Another tack historically, for what its worth on the meaning of chauvinistic, I vaguely recalled from school the source being a man named Chauvin, whom I anticipated would have been a big womanizer when I looked it up. Quite the opposite..hoowee to wit ------------------------------------------------- following verbatim from Wikipedia: [historical] ------------------------------------------------- Nicolas Chauvin From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia Jump to: navigation, search Nicolas Chauvin (possibly b. Rochefort, France, c. 1790) was a semi-mythical soldier and patriot who served in the First Army of the French Republic and subsequently in La Grande Armee of Napoleon Bonaparte. His name is the origin of the term chauvinism. ----------------------------------end Wikipedia It [Wikipedia] goes on to explain that the term came to be used as a person of excessive nationalism or mis-placed patriotism. He also was a fervent, sycophantic follower who idolized Napolean. So, the word's historical definition [denotation] was not one of disdain and user/abuser of women per se ,but a term later attributed to political excess and generally considered pejorative from the start, it would appear. However, its current [connotation] seems to be highly variable gauging from all the above responses ! LOL :) Clearly though its usage has undergone spontaneous mutagenesis to reflect a false sense of male superiority as I read it. My opinion JJ: Given that in so much modern pop music you can't even distinguish the lyrics enought to begin debating the merit, I applaud GL's lyrics being intelligable, if not ALWAYS admirable (who is ?). Yes, I think [the lyrics] are chauvinistic, not Gord. I'd simply point out to augment the songbook comment by GL a mention he made of it in concert I attended in Denver, almost apologetically to the audience, while obviously amused by the over-examination of what could be an entirely fictitious scenario [i.e. are we to assume all songs are about Lightfoot when not explicity so ?] : - paraphrasing "this was in my early days and is clearly chauvinistic in nature, but was simply [about] a temporary less-than-admirable fleeting thought that became a [good] song". He added "I do NOT feel this way about women, perhaps I did a few times back then, but this song is NOT based on an experience of mine, but I s'pose could 'a been [self-deprecating grin and utterings while audience laughed]. [again, to best of my memory] he continued "BUT... I like to play it now with the contrasting more admirable take I s'pose of "Did She Mention My Name" following [explaining then how how a young man full of pi** and vinegar in the 1st song could change over time to the more gentlemanly approach toward woman in the 2nd song, and hence how he liked to tempor the excesses of the 1st with the 2nd in the medley]. So, while apparently not autobiographical from those comments alone at that concert, he still felt it of value to make clear his own evolution of growing respect for women over the years by forming the medley. But, he was not overly concerned about it..as in "its just a SONG" ... I think as fans of his, we are typically accustomed to his songs being more than just enjoyable little ditties you can whistle, but rather genuine works of art and poetry. Once in awhile, however, it seems he is posessed of writing a song that is in fact the former.[why not?].. and fun to him he said, which is cool with me.... And Jessie-Joe - I think Gloria meant a slightly different way regarding mid-70'S GL than you did when you agreed somewhat. - Gloria: meant tastefully in the best of ways, and Jessie: all in good fun ;) So Sydney, I have relieved you I think of the burden in this thread anyway of the longest post distinction you had the good nature to mention ...but my goal was not that [to best you]at all...LOL. Rather, to communicate what I thought of the subject at hand...and in neat little paragraphs ! Rickv - good point, I don't recall it being gender specific. geo Steve [ July 09, 2006, 06:44: Message edited by: geodeticman ] |
Mike - you make a good point - your comment about it being "protected arrogance" best reflects what I heard and recall for the most part what Gord said in that concert.
GL also mentioned it was meant as a form of "false bravado or machismo" - and... that he meant it to be a story of the man trying to protect his own feelings, embarrassed by himself for really BEING attached to her and saying half-heartedly "I don't really care anyway, you shouldn't either.. [e.g. yeah that's it that's the ticket].." . I think you pegged it in that aspect at least. - geo Steve |
GeoSteve, from what you have contributed to this post. From a sweet love in, "Did She Mention My Name," to the (chauvinistic or not} of ,"For Lovin Me." I think most of us would agree, that he sure can write them...A Poet Genius, no matter what is the subject of the song. He is the best...JJ. :)
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JessieJoe - thanks you for the [compliment?]!
You sure are right there, friend - on GL being able to write them, no matter the take on any one given song at any one time. He is IMHO a Poet Laureate in his own right, and a magical musician on top of the deal. We so often say these things that seem best understood and shared by die-hard fans, that they functionally transcend opinion on our common love of the man's music, that they approach becoming truisms- generally accepted by fans as a "given" . But then, if we agreed on everything, there would be nothing to write about in this forum, for which I am greatful. I feel that in this world that all too often leans too much towards blase, and tends to engender a laissez-fairre mentality, that GL's music stands out as moments of grace, dignity, and beauty. For what may be a minute - on the radio, or CD in the car, for an hour at home by the fire with your wife or S.O. at your side, or for that rare 2+ hours in concert we count the days to it seems, my wife and I get something increasingly special when we listen. See, since I was a teenager, I originally idolized Gordon Lightfoot, wanted to be just like him, you know how teens think. Over time, as I grew up, I learned he was... human, with frailties, imperfections, challenges, troubles, bills to pay, kids to teach life too before we've got it figured out yet, much the same as we learn over time our parents are human too. And yet there remains something special, as I said above...- those few minutes, maybe an hour or two, of that special feeling Gord gives us to transcend the mundane and often parochial day-to-day trappings "mister hoot-n-holler, gotta make a dollar"... As Gord put even this best, perhaps unknowingly in its full extent - in the song "Is There Anyone Home", the following:(if memory serves)- "don't be ashamed if you get a warmth in your heart... you got that feelin' in your soul" - That elusive but very real "Lightfoot feeling" . Thanks - geo Steve |
Very very well written, Geo Steve. Myself I idolized him, still do today, but its like you perfectly stated, he is human, with imperfections, challenges , bills to pay, etc. We are all humans, fighting the same battles.
It's John Mellencamp that said it best, in an interview in the 80's. He said "Ive been real poor, and now I have a little bit of money. But Money is not gone a solve your problems, Pays you phone bill. But whichever problems you have are with in your head and you heart, and money is not gone a solve that." You write, he is {IHMO?} a Poet Laureat in his own right, A magical musician. The later one I had never heard before. Well put my friend, can I steal it from you? I will use it from now on. A Magical Musician... I love it...Jesse. :) :rolleyes: ;) |
Jesse-Joe,
Your sentiments jarred this memory of an interview with John Hartford about the writing of "Gentle on My Mind". The interviewer notes that Hartford could retire and live comfortably with the proceeds from that song alone. To which Hartford replied, "Financially, yes. But not mentally or spiritually". RMD |
Exactly RMD! Same as the Mellencamp interview, is what your telling me here right? Money pays the bills, but mentally or spiritualy as you say,All the money in the world ain't gone a solve those problems.
Money is a very big necessity, but there are people with lots of money that end up killing themselves. Mind you also many poor people end up the same way. Is this what you meant RMD?...Jesse. :) [ July 10, 2006, 07:26: Message edited by: Jesse -Joe ] |
The song "needs" to be gender specific? :confused:
Are you implying Gordon isn't talking about a woman??! :eek: I think it's pretty safe to say he is and yes it is a chauvanistic thing (whether you are a man or a woman) to imply that you'll overcome a break-up better than they will. Not to mention telling that person,"I've got a 100 more like you". Or..."Everything you had is gone,as you can see" ... and,"Someday when your poor heart is on the mend,I just might pass this way again". In other words,I'll continue to make you miserable?! It's usually guys that do things like that,women do to,but it's usually the male. These are pretty pathetic things for anyone to say to another,after sharing a close relationship. Talk about doing anything to feel superior! :rolleyes: [ July 09, 2006, 15:47: Message edited by: Borderstone ] |
Jesse-Joe,
About people killing themselves ?...no. Just kidding. I was just offering an affirmation of the thoughts that were expressed in the Mellencamp interview. The Hartford interview has just stayed in my memory. As the Beatles said "Can't Buy Me Love". RMD |
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Borderstone, Gordon is definitly talking about a woman for sure. I was just answering a point that Geo Steve had said, about Lightfoot being like the rest of us, having bills to pay, etc . Go up a few posts and read what he's typed.
RMD, yes that's exactly what I was trying to find out from you. Bottom line is that famous Beatles song, "Can't Buy Me Love." The suicide thing , I took it a litle further. Sorry for that...Jesse. |
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