cover of SUNDOWN by Toby Keith

[charlene]

Toby is NOT my cuppa in the least that's for sure, but it should be nice new coverage for Sundown with the fans of Toby. Release date is the week of the Letterman show.

http://www.theboot.com/2010/08/17/toby-keith-bullets-in-the-gun-live-bonus-tracks/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+AllAOLMusicNews+(All+AOL+Musi c+News)

[Jesse Joe]

Same here for Toby Keith but great to see he's doing SUNDOWN.

Gordon Lightfoot announces Ontario tour dates; tickets on sale next week

CP
Mon, 09/08/2010 - 9:13am

TORONTO - Iconic folk singer-songwriter Gordon Lightfoot has announced two weeks of shows in Ontario next year and is planning a more-extensive tour.

Lightfoot will perform next May in Windsor, Cornwall, Brockville, Napanee and then play four nights at Toronto's Massey Hall.

His shows at Massey Hall will set the mark for the most performances at the historic venue by any artist.

Tickets for the tour range from $40 to $90.

Lightfoot will also make a rare television appearance on the "Late Show with David Letterman" on Oct. 8.

Lightfoot has won 15 Junos and five Grammys in his career and has been inducted into the Canadian Music Hall of Fame, the Canadian Country Music Hall Of Fame and Canadian Songwriters Hall of Fame.

[timetraveler]

i'm not exactly a big fan of Keith either, but he did at least show that he has good taste when he chose Sundown. I'll definately have to hear what it sounds like when he sings such a classic.

[vlmagee]

Here it is, as the "Related Media" in the Amazon listing:

Video: Toby Keith doing Sundown (http://bit.ly/cemfXU)

You may not be a fan of Toby Keith, but this is one dynamite cover. Check out the lead guitar solos! Wow.

[jj]

thanks for posting...i know nothing of this guy but what an all 'round lame rendition (and video, what's with the PIP view), imo...but we all agree, glad he's promoing GL..what i'd like to hear is his intro to the song in live concert

the droned female backing vox arrangement makes it sound like a Christian rock musak cut...i feel gord's (and rick/terry live) chorus harmony on the studio production is what takes an arguably monotonous track to a whole other level...the lead guy here should probably repeat the first solo lick 2x to give the next lick more impact, the way the studio cut is...why stray from a classic solo at all..well, those are my honest first (and probably last) impressions

[vlmagee]

Gee, JJ, cut the guy some slack! He's a top country music star, and covers Lightfoot with an arrangement that very much pays tribute to Lightfoot's own, while still being faithful to his own musical style. (Compare this cover with Elwood's for example). Keith is not trying to do a note-for-note rendition, or sound like Lightfoot and the band. I am not trying to convert you into a Toby Keith fan, but the fact that a star of his stature would interpret the song with such a nod to the original is a fine tribute.

[charlene]

He might be a 'star' but I have never liked him or his music and still don't despite his covering of a Lightfoot tune. The song drags and has no energy for me and his voice is monotonous. The guitar stuff is great. Not as great a Terrys but good. It lacks the sexiness that the tune has when done by Lightfoot on the album or live.
Maybe onstage, in front of an audience it will be less of a yawner.

[jj]

we all agree, glad he's promoing GL

sorry, i buried this comment in my reply and it probably should have been on it's own

i do think the lead guy will revise his solo to do the opening lick 2x

ray conniff was a big name also, but i probably wouldn't have enjoy his cover much either (it sounds like toby borrowed his back up singers;))

thanks for the feedback...i think this board needs more friendly but contradictory opinions...i've never come across so many agreeable folks, lol

[charlene]

well the big ol' redneck was in town, leaving his patriotism at the border apparently..
...and didn't sing his version of Sundown.
(even if it's on the 'next' album he could/should have done it!- hello!! you're in gordtown dude and just recorded a gordtune!! )
http://www.torontosun.com/entertainment/columnists/jane_stevenson/2010/09/24/15460216.html

[fezo]

Sounds OK. I'd have to hear more than that to give it higher than OK but I do have to comment on ol' Toby.

Yeah, I generally don't go for his act but he does pick out writers that need to be acknowledged. I like that. He was the first major Nashville guy to pick up enough on Fred Eaglesmth to actually record one of his songs - the absolute killer White Rose. Since then Miranda Lambert picked up another Fred tune and Alan Jackson ever named his latest album after one - Freight Train. But Toby was the first.

Maybe he'll start a trend and more of the current Nashville crop will rediscover the treasure trove of Lightfoot tunes.

[MistyMoppens]

Interesting.. I've listened to contemporary country although have gotten away from it recently. Toby's music/videos can be pretty good at times. Would love to hear him cover "Sundown."

[jj]

misty, you are in luck - the cover was posted in the thread - see amazon video

[MistyMoppens]

misty, you are in luck - the cover was posted in the thread - see amazon video

Thank you, Friend!

I'm really liking Toby's version of Sundown except something kind of threw me. Aren't the lyrics, "gettin' lost in her lovin' is your first mistake." Because it sounds like Toby is singing "gettin' lost in a woman is your first mistake." hmmm...

I kind of like Toby's cocky attitude. Sort of reminds me of young Gordon. I just like it from a distance! LoL..

[charlene]

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/10/04/arts/music/04choice.html?_r=1

“Bullets in the Gun”

(Show Dog/Universal)

You can almost hear the muscle atrophying on “Bullets in the Gun,” the latest from Toby Keith. More than a dozen albums into a career known best for rallying jingoists and for cheeky, not altogether unpleasant smugness, Mr. Keith is finally letting go of old modes. So much for bluster. So much for pride.

“Bullets in the Gun” is his most scattershot album to date, a jumble of attitudes and tactics. Much of the time Mr. Keith, who has been one of the most underappreciated vocal stylists in country music, is singing without conviction on songs that are mere archetypes and lack any of his signature gestures. “Trailerhood” is a lazy song full of backwoods clichés, and “Drive It On Home” toasts the wonders of trucking. On “Somewhere Else,” for perhaps the first time, he delivers syllables in quick, nimble fashion, in the style of Jason Mraz.

The title track, a pumped-up and comically desperate tale of a couple on the lam in Mexico, is slick and almost parodic (“We came to a town with a name I couldn’t spell”), as if from an imagined Marc Shaiman cowboy musical. Worse, apart from “Is That All You Got” — “This old heart didn’t die/It’s been broke by the best” — he’s all but forsaken the gentle big-lug soul he’s been toying with in recent years, which had been a thoughtful, winning strategy against aging. (The deluxe edition of this album includes four tracks recorded live at Irving Plaza in New York in June, including a tender version of Gordon Lightfoot’s “Sundown.”)

In places on the album, though, he’s still preening, and these vestigial moments are welcome. On “Think About You All of the Time” he cockily assures an ex that breaking up with him didn’t release her from his clutches: “If by chance I start romancing/You guessed it/I think about you.” This unbruised, masculine presumptuousness continues on the album closer, “Get Out Of My Car,” a comically loathsome but likable statement of late-night purpose. “Get out of your clothes or get out of my car/Whichever you choose, I’m ready to go,” Mr. Keith sings, loosely referencing the melody of his 2005 single “As Good as I Once Was,” his genial celebration of the body in decline. Don’t keep him up all night: time’s a wastin’. JON CARAMANICA

[TC]

From what I heard of his cover of Sundown (from the snippet provided by Amazon), it sounded very nice.

[charlene]

http://www.theboot.com/2010/08/17/to...AOL+Music+News - I guess this clip is rehearsal...

[Jim Nasium]

Gee, JJ, cut the guy some slack! He's a top country music star, and covers Lightfoot with an arrangement that very much pays tribute to Lightfoot's own, while still being faithful to his own musical style. (Compare this cover with Elwood's for example). Keith is not trying to do a note-for-note rendition, or sound like Lightfoot and the band. I am not trying to convert you into a Toby Keith fan, but the fact that a star of his stature would interpret the song with such a nod to the original is a fine tribute.

Well said, Val, all I ask of a cover version is that the artist treats the song with due respect and does not butcher the thing. Toby Keith meets my criteria here. A nice gentle rendition. JJ if you want to hear the original guitar break, dig out your copy of Sundown.

[jj]

the lead guy here should probably repeat the first solo lick 2x to give the next lick more impact, the way the studio cut is...why stray from a classic solo at all..well, those are my honest first (and probably last) impressions

i can't think how i would revise my offensive post...although i feel my post about the harmonies was a bit overboard and maybe even offensive to some who dig christain rock, if so i am regretful and no harm intended...let's see how that track gets laid down once the boys get through the rehearsal stage...from what i'm reading there will be a few disappointed folks here should the lead guitarist come in earlier an do the signature lick 2x...it's really no big deal to me and in fact, to me, the current solo is the most appealing part of this rehearsal performance...

...i don't expect the harmony or lead vocal will be much different in the more polished live recording...my post did cut him some slack, as you should have seen it before edit;)

a little honesty goes nowhere, lol... i will have to research the Elwood one cos it sounds like there must have been some disrespect on that...as for why Toby didnt' play Sundown in Toronto to pay respect to the man, does anyone have any insight?

[jj]

He was the first major Nashville guy to pick up enough on Fred Eaglesmth to actually record one of his songs

that is interesting, fezo...i guess i've not kept up on Fred since Willie P passed but i was quite taken back with the Fred image on Letterman appearance, certainly a bit more eccentric (for lack of better word) than the times i've seen him some time ago playing with the boys...i love his box (it truly is) set

[charlene]

JJ - it wasn't offensive.
You didn't slag Toby Keith personally or anyone who posts here. It was an opinion on a song he did, just like any one else's, including the professional critic whose review I posted.
The critic says it's a tender version...that's why I don't like it.
Angry warnings and tender don't jibe for me.

[charlene]

for those who like TK - he's everywhere:
http://blog.newsok.com/bamsblog/2010/10/04/toby-keith-appears-on-late-night-tv-this-week/

http://www.google.com/hostednews/canadianpress/article/ALeqM5gyoECGvbVNhLSVWiMEeqkigNqliQ?docId=4735742

http://www.google.com/hostednews/canadianpress/article/ALeqM5gyoECGvbVNhLSVWiMEeqkigNqliQ?docId=4735742 - this review calls his version of SUNDOWN - "beautifully menacing"..

sheesh..

[jj]

Maybe he'll start a trend and more of the current Nashville crop will rediscover the treasure trove of Lightfoot tunes.

i was trying to find out what the 'angry american' theme was all about and instead stumbled on this YouTube - Deryl Dodd "Sundown"

i don't know this fella (but i was impressed with some of his comments in a few interviews i just watched) any more than toby but i guess his cover did some charting last decade...i believe keith urban (i've actually heard of him, pretty talented player) was also playing a 'country' cover of this live last year however that may have only been for the toronto show...country radio up here just spins the actual GL version and if they also did so down south that would probably turn the current crop onto Gord... maybe someone in country music should revive something like hangdog hotel room or if it should please you or one of a pile of other GL tunes that are hidden gems with cover single potential awaiting a refreshed arrangement...i'd prefer mine non-tender... something well-done would be nice

[Jim Nasium]

The Americans are really angry now, they have just lost the Ryder Cup.

A dodgy connection to the Post, Toby Keith and GL both play golf.

[charlene]

The Americans are really angry now, they have just lost the Ryder Cup.

A dodgy connection to the Post, Toby Keith and GL both play golf.

LOL!!

I don't think GL has golfed in decades..ever since the time he had on jeans and they made him change his pants before starting to play.

[charlene]

Toby Keith Reloads
Bullets in the Gun best album from country star in a long while
By Heath McCoy, Mike Bell, Eric Volmers, Calgary Herald; Postmedia News October 5, 2010 Review

Toby Keith Bullets In The Gun http://www.calgaryherald.com/entertainment/Toby+Keith+Reloads/3623675/story.html

½ out of five

Toby Keith has almost always been at his best when he's either tipping his hat to two-fisted outlaw country or playing the beer-drinking, skirt-chasing cowboy clown.

He's often overplayed both of those hands, coming across, by turns, as ham-fisted and Hee Haw hokey. But when he nails it, he's a lot better than his detractors -- usually put off by his outspoken libertarian politics and political incorrectness -- give him credit for being.

The burly Oklahoman's latest studio album, Bullets In The Gun -- which finds him stepping up with some of the strongest, most memorable tunes he's recorded in years -- is proof of that.

The album's title track offers an immediate highlight, playing up to Keith's outlaw yen with a tough, well-crafted country rocker which tells the story of a modern day Bonnie and Clyde (here, Bonnie's a stripper), in a standoff with the Mexican police. The roadhouse rocker Drive It On Home makes it in that vein, too, both tunes ideal for burning down the barn in concert.

Keith's always had a strong knack for a catchy, singalong chorus and he hits on one of his best ever with the tuneful Somewhere Else.

That same talent comes into play on the heartachy country ballad In A Couple of Days, which wouldn't be at all out of place on a George Strait album.

As ever, Keith gives vent to his lighthearted side, most notably on the first single, Trailerhood, a cute sounding, Roger Miller-like jingle that salutes the down-to-earth qualities of trailer park living.

The singer's ever present wiseass comes out, too, on Get Out Of My Car. This one may offend some, with the narrator's putout or get-lost ultimatum to his girlfriend, but it is worth noting that, in the end, the classless cad gets shot down. ( "I got out of my clothes/ She got outta my car.")

For those who purchase the deluxe edition of Bullets In The Gun there's also four live cover songs, three of which pinpoint exactly where Keith is coming from at this point in his career.

They include two tunes by the witty Roger Miller (Chug-A-Lug and I've Been A Long Time Leavin') and, another, a rough riding blues rocker originally recorded by outlaw country boy Johnny Paycheck (11 Months and 29 Days). These spotlight Keith's talented Easy Money Band nicely.

Unexpectedly, Keith also breaks out a fine cover of Gordon Lightfoot's dark horse hit Sundown, and while he doesn't quite capture the brooding menace of the original, he does the song justice just the same.

Bullets In The Gun would be an even better album if it was recorded with a bit more grit, minus those tiresome, too-slick Nashville production values, but, nevertheless, it's Keith's best work in a long while.

Read more: http://www.calgaryherald.com/entertainment/Toby+Keith+Reloads/3623675/story.html#ixzz11UC8u0QU

[jj]

LOL!!

I don't think GL has golfed in decades..ever since the time he had on jeans and they made him change his pants before starting to play.

lol, the courses i can afford to play don't care if you're in jean (and sandals)


i did some googling and found out about the angry, boot in the butt, american way thing was all about so now i'm with it...i think Jackson's subtler composition left more of an impact

YouTube - Alan Jackson - Where Were You (Live Video) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c9PwWkV4HQ4&feature=related)

so it's Oct 5, where can i hear the new cover in its finished and full form?

[MistyMoppens]

Although I'm normally a "Dove" with a capital "D" I have to admit liking Toby's "boot in the a$$" song. (love Alan Jackson's poignant tune as well)

I love the passion, the outrage and the fury in Toby's song at the wholesale, bloody slaughter of thousands of innocent, unsuspecting civilians from all walks of life - not just Americans. Toby's protest song is justified, IMO.

All of Europe is on alert right now for possible terrorist attacks. Hopefully, Toronto will never have to endure what NYC did.

Just my two cents.

[charlene]

280 Candians (of 320 passengers) died in a terrorist attack on an airplane in 1985.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_India_Flight_182

in 2006 18 wannabe terrorists were arrested in toronto -
http://www3.thestar.com/static/toronto18/index.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2006_Toronto_terrorism_plot

[RM]

Didn't a suspected terrorist also appear on "Canadian Idol " ?

[MistyMoppens]

280 Candians (of 320 passengers) died in a terrorist attack on an airplane in 1985.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_India_Flight_182

in 2006 18 wannabe terrorists were arrested in toronto -
http://www3.thestar.com/static/toronto18/index.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2006_Toronto_terrorism_plot

To date - 2,966 innocent people murdered in the 9/11 attacks.
19 terrorists are frying in Hell.

[charlene]

Sept. 11, 2001 - 2,752 dead from 70 countries.

MM - I'm not doing a body count as a competition of where more people were murdered.. - I'm just stating we've had terrorism related to our country and citizens as well.. 25 years ago.

RM - yep - Canadian Idol - http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/38872229/ns/world_news-americas/

[banjobench12]

Well keeping with the golf theme....I was in Washington DC last weekend and was constantly thinking of Gord's only golf song.

On the Metro they have a recorded announcement that keeps saying STEP BACK

Couldn't get Baby Step Back out of my head and Idon't really like the song!

[banjobench12]

Well keeping with the golf theme....I was in Washington DC last weekend and was constantly thinking of Gord's only golf song.

On the Metro they have a recorded announcement that keeps saying STEP BACK

Couldn't get Baby Step Back out of my head and Idon't really like the song!

[MistyMoppens]

I realize that, Char. I'm just trying to explain why Ameriacans are still emotionally raw from that day. Toby Keith's song hits a great big nerve here.

I vividly recall that hideous attack on that plane in 1985. It's impossible to forget something like that.

I remember crossing over back into the States at Niagara Falls the night it went down with the Lackawanna Six. (aka: Buffalo Six) All heck was breaking loose!! Dogs all over each car... It was really intense...

[MistyMoppens]

Well keeping with the golf theme....I was in Washington DC last weekend and was constantly thinking of Gord's only golf song.

On the Metro they have a recorded announcement that keeps saying STEP BACK

Couldn't get Baby Step Back out of my head and Idon't really like the song!

LOL! In London it would have been "Mind The Gap"

[banjobench12]

And Mary Chapin Carpenter has a great song about....MIND THE GAP

[charlene]

Well keeping with the golf theme....I was in Washington DC last weekend and was constantly thinking of Gord's only golf song.

On the Metro they have a recorded announcement that keeps saying STEP BACK

Couldn't get Baby Step Back out of my head and Idon't really like the song!

LOL!!

[charlene]

review: (now it's a classic American rock song) good grief.
http://countrymusiclife.com/toby-keith-bullets-gun-album/

14) Sundown
You’ll recognize this Gordon Lightfoot classic. Toby puts some great passion behind this live version on the Deluxe version of his latest album. He gets the fans in the audience to sing along and it makes for a great moment on the record. I love when country artists take on classic American rock songs like this. Toby does a great job. He captures the same vibe Gordon does on the original and adds a little bit of Toby attitude.

[charlene]

http://indexdownload.com/musics-and-clips/toby-keith-bullets-in-the-gun-2010-377107.html/

http://www.fileserve.com/file/dCyFYU4/tk_BullGun.part2.rar -- I used this one..
listening now..LIVE concert version.. gettin lost in a woman instead of gettin lost in her lovin...
guitar solo is good..so far the song has more grit than the rehearsal video...heavy bass line..
ending kinda dies out..
still hasn't got the 'oomph' of Lightfoots version.
still don't like TK.
A whole new audience for a great American classic by Toby Keith.
Pretty sure most of his 'audience' will think he wrote it...and have never heard of Gordon Lightfoot the Canadian who wrote it and made it a hit back in the day.
lolol

Toby Keith – Bullets in the gun (2010) | Full And Free Download ...
By admin
The Deluxe Edition underlines the breadth of Keith's influence by offering live cover versions of Gordon Lightfoot's “Sundown,” Johnny Paycheck's “11 Months and 29 Days,” and “I've Been A Long Time Leaving (But I'll Be A Long Time ...
Full And Free Download rapidshare... - http://indexdownload.com/

[MistyMoppens]

review: (now it's a classic American rock song) good grief.
http://countrymusiclife.com/toby-keith-bullets-gun-album/

14) Sundown
You’ll recognize this Gordon Lightfoot classic. Toby puts some great passion behind this live version on the Deluxe version of his latest album. He gets the fans in the audience to sing along and it makes for a great moment on the record. I love when country artists take on classic American rock songs like this. Toby does a great job. He captures the same vibe Gordon does on the original and adds a little bit of Toby attitude.

I do like Toby's version but this person is out to lunch. Toby's version is super laid back - not "passionate." And he certainly doesn't capture "the same vibe." (Gordon's version is much more edgy, dark, raw and menacing.) It's also missing Toby's typical cocky attitude. He put his own stamp on it but that was about it. While I like it I don't love it.

So I agree with Char - GOOD GRIEF!

[Jim Nasium]

With regards to Alan Jackson's haunting tribute to 9/11, here is Tom Paxton's take. Equally as touching. I am sure most of you have heard this before.


YouTube - The Bravest

[jj]

thanks, i hadn't heard that one, jim...yes, we all have been shattered by that day but many days since also which has fortunately had a few diffused attempts (eg. the toronto 18)...i say get the boot (and thumbs) out of the butt, the way of the world will have to be through education of future generations...in hundreds of year the history books (or aliens) will sort out which of earth's inhabitants were the instigators vs retaliators...i gotta say i like how toby seems to support whoever is elected through the democratic process, we need more and less energy going into hindering progress...my feelings for the cover have nothing to do with a pre-existing TK dislike...i can't hear the rar fiel on the mac...thanks for the reviews...i haven't gone back to the GL sundown solo recording yet but it sounds like the guitarist may have

here is an example of the mindset that is disturbing, if not anger provoking to those of us in the west
http://www.thestar.com/news/world/article/870793--times-square-bomb-plotter-guilty-warns-of-war-with-muslims
...on top of this, we also have home bred (and combat trained) youth disgruntled and always planning on taking action...with all this said, i don't feel it's too late for praying

now, speaking of anger provoking, let's get back to that golf talk...

[charlene]

I couldn't take anything the reviewer said as gospel or professional once he classified it as a great classic American rock song ...

[jj]

What's wrong with that? It may have charted pop and adult contemp. but we all considered it as a rock song at the time. It rocks, always has!

lol, i don't think it's the 'rock' genre reference that's at issue, lol

anyhow, if he had even phrased it as a 'classic Americas rock song', sure it would have been collectively included north and south of the border but would have been ignorant to all the UK, Aussie fans who enjoyed it's far reaching airwaves...hey, when i googled to try find the full version i got lots of hits for toby keith lyrics including sundown...getting used to brushing that stuff off...i think canucks need to take the attitude, claim anyone born elsewhere that sets foot here that's got any appeal (like Halladay, lol) and share those who are talented who were born here, like GL...and most importantly export everyone who is of no use, lol

is there a TK video of this 'Deluxe' track playing on CMT or wherever? i'm getting the feeling that only those diehard TK fans who have gobbled up the cd earlier this week are the only ones who are going to get some GL exposure and that it will not be a single reaching country audiences of the south...i probably read into that myself after getting caught up in the initial hype...i wonder how GL feels about being on an album called Bullets in the Gun...based on reviews that is supposed to be a decent title track...i'll keep my ears open and try keep my mind also open

[charlene]

I never once thought of any Lightfoot song as a rock song. A toe tapper but not rock. A classic but not rock...

But mostly I never once thought of it as an "American" anything ..
;)

[redhead]

I never once thought of any Lightfoot song as a rock song. A toe tapper but not rock. A classic but not rock...

But mostly I never once thought of it as an "American" anything ..
;)

Interesting. Growing up, I never thought of Gordon Lightfoot as a "Canadian" performer -- just my favorite performer who happened to be from Canada. Was I supposed to?

IF YOU COULD READ MY MIND, TALKING IN YOUR SLEEP, SUNDOWN, CAREFREE HIGHWAY, RAINY DAY PEOPLE, THE WRECK OF THE EDMUND FITZGERALD and THE CIRCLE IS SMALL all charted here in the States and none of those songs made reference to Canadian Nationalism (in fact, many of his songs reference specific locations in the U.S., in addition to Canada). Also, many of his songs have been covered by American artists with most folks being unaware of who has written the music that they are listening to.

GL has been performing in America by choice for over 40 years. He has a huge fan base here that has and continues to support his talent by buying his records/cds and attending his concerts. As such and by his own volition, his work has made an imprint on the culture here as well (i.e., IYCRMM was used in the movie "Wonderland" to capture and portray a specific period of time here in the 1970's). So when someone errs in referring to one of his songs as an "American Classic", try to remember how long Americans have been listening to him, and that it actually was here in the U.S. market that he was able to "break open", which resulted in him being catapulted into international stardom.

I understand the pride Canadians feel for him. He has remained true to his Canadian roots and his country throughout his career. The fact does remain, however, that a large bulk of his career was achieved here in the U.S. When I read the comment that "I never thought of it as an "American" anything", it gave me pause to think, is that in reference to the man himself (who obviously isn't), or to some of his work (which arguably in some people's minds) could be.

I believe his music crosses international borders, and that he himself has set it up that way.

redhead

[TC]

Well said Redhead. This whole nationalism/Lightfoot thing is getting a bit to deep.

[charlene]

I'm befuddled why it's ok to say a song is "classic American" but that's not nationalism. Yet when another opinion that it is not "American" is stated it is then considered nationalism and too deep.

Nope - you weren't supposed to think of him any way you didn't want to. Or in a way which didn't occur to you. But he is Canadian with all that inherently brings to the song writing table, regardless of what you did or didn't think.
I'm well aware of where Gord's performed over the years and the impact it had on his career and where his tours take him these days.
Sundown was also a hit here in Canada, as were many of his other tunes .
Being from Canada makes him a "Canadian" performer/artist. A huge number of his tunes and for that matter his recognition factor is his writings about Canada - people, places, nature, geography, history. It's one facet of his writing that is mentioned quite a lot by his worldwide audiences and music critics, many describing him as a Canadian songwriter - not just meaning his nationality. He also refers to places in the U.S. and around the world, writing from a Canadian mindset.
He is unabashedly Canadian. His Canadianism is reflected in his music just as Toby Keith's Americanism is in his songs. He writes what he knows and lives in his own country where he grew up and that coloured his views. In Lightfoot tunes that tell of American events they are written/interpreted with a Canadian perspective and tone.
Are British rock groups songs also referred to as classic American rock? Australian? Canadian rock groups like The Guess Who, Bryan Adams, Bachman Turner Overdrive -
Are their hit songs American rock? (this rationale applies to other music genres as well)
There is a nationalism about music..regardless of what kind of music it is. There's British rock, folk, pop, blues, country as surely as there is American folk, rock, pop, blues, country and as well there is Canadian folk, rock, pop, blues, country etc.....because a person doesn't acknowledge it doesn't mean it doesn't exist.
What makes a song "American" rock? Is it because it was a hit in the U.S. regardless of the artists' origin? That's enough to claim it as such?
I would think American rock would be Springsteen, Tom Petty, etc. for example. I refer to their songs as rock. American rock. Different than British rock. Different than Canadian rock. I am aware however that they are American artists and altho they have had hit songs here I don't refer to them as classic 'Canadian' rock songs as I would for Canadian rock artists such as Bryan Adams, The Hip, Rush, etc.
Are Beatles songs 'classic American rock songs' because they had huge success in America? No - they are British rockers -they are classic British rock songs. They have an identity of their own.
Many would argue that where an artist comes from defines their 'sound' in their songs. (musically and lyrically) And if that performer remains in their home country this may be even moreso.
The cultural happenings in countries and even in specific areas of each country played a huge part in the sound/songs written. This was especially true from the 30's onward I think. These site specific events (war/the Depression/political events, etc.) play into the 'sound/feel' of each individual artist.
Because a songs’ lyrics don't reference an artist's home country does not negate the 'sound/feel' their music has that identifies them as Canadian/American/British etc.
Prior to being catapulted into international stardom when an American radio station played one of his tunes please remember that Lightfoot was already a star at home in Canada for several years. He wasn't an obscure artist begging for recognition or for his career to 'break open.' The evolution of his career saw his music become known worldwide, his tours took him global and he sold a lot of records. Records full of the songs of a Canadian musician, writing from/with a Canadian sensibility and perspective about the things that mattered to him in his life. His Canadian life that shaped his thoughts, opinions and words and that still do to this day. Just like Springsteen, Tom Petty, Alan Jackson, Billy Joel, John Mellencamp et al write with their own life experiences and influences that come with living in the U.S.
They may write about events in other countries but it with their own personal uniqueness..and much of that relates to their nationality and a life lived in their home country where politics, education, and society shaped their thoughts and how they express themselves.
re: "American anything" - the discussion is about the song, not the man. We know he is Canadian. I don't agree the song is "American" of any kind of musical genre, be it pop, folk, easy listening, contemporary.. Like art and literature, music has a nationality.
And as discussed before, Lightfoot music, tho classified most of the time as 'folk' music almost always defies that description. Lightfoot music is a genre unto itself. Perhaps ‘folk rock’ best describes many of his tunes when speaking of their ‘musical’ genre.
His music has, still does and always will cross international borders, that's not in question.
I am questioning the labeling of a particular song as "American." My question is not meant as an insult.
It seems that saying his music is Canadian is nationalism even though saying it is "American" as the critic did, is not, and it must not be commented upon. Wow.
I think SUNDOWN is not "American, Rock, or American Rock"..
I think it IS a classic though.

[jj]

So when someone errs in referring to one of his songs as an "American Classic", try to remember how long Americans have been listening to him, and that it actually was here in the U.S. market that he was able to "break open", which resulted in him being catapulted into international stardom

just a thinking out loud reply here: so if an article referred to, let's say, Born to Run as a Canadian classic it wouldn't make you scratch your head, even though many, many, Canucks have been loving and supporting the Boss with album, singles, merchandise and concert purchases for decades, as well as radio station play requests? i don't think any of that support makes Springsteen music the least bit Canadian...i don't think we have to get too deep or even turn the table much in order to understand how ignorant and , well, dumb the phrase used was...is Let it Be also an American classic?

i didn't stop to think that any airplay or sales in say, Commonwealth nations was the result of USA acceptance...myself, i never felt Gord ever broke 'it' open in the USA but am glad he's had enough success south of the border to have what i consider a cult type following...i am sure Gord LOVES touring and playing for for American fans and I'm sorry he hasn't been able to get overseas and satisfy his, imo, modest, international following

i think you said it best in that latter comment and a better phrase in the article might have been calling it 'an international classic'...as for the rock genre, i think someone said it best when they said Gordon has created his own genre...on the other hand, remember Gord coming out in that 'Rock' t-shirt on the MMM special, lol :) i still don't know what rock and roll is...maybe Gord fit's more into the Roll classification

redhead, that's a well articulated post you made, imo...i agree, certainly that some of the imagery and/or character inspirations in his songs could well be from time spent south or the border or even abroad...as far as the Sundown track, the whole vibe just makes me think of the Muskokas for some reason, perhaps I was up there when i first heard it...i love talking to other music fans (GL or otherwise) about what connotations certain albums or tracks have with listeners...i wish there were some associations that i could shake actually, but they stick like glue! and the more penetrating the song, the harder the bond is to break..and I find GL's stuff very penetrating

you might dig a Geographical themed link at the Lightfoot.ca site where all the places mentioned in each song are categorized...tons of US references:)

anyhow, by American anything, i would say that just means they could have called it soft rock or jazz or blues, etc genre and it wouldn't have mattered since the journalist decided to try associate it with a nation, ad in error to boot...some might have to be the 'little guy' Canuck to understand how deep a phrase like that cuts...we see it all the time, and i suppose many like TC continue to blow it off

i hope you are catching him on this tour and give us a review, and the more in depth the better, you articulate well and are obviously a longtime appreciator of the man and the music...with that said, wouldnt' it be terrific to get some fresh opinions from some of the new following he may have netted as a result of Toby's cover or any other covers well aired outside of Canada...i don't even mind if they are oozing with some respectful criticisms, i think it's all good...

[jj]

his music is as American as apple pie

well, maybe his tunes are the cheddar that goes on top of it, lol (mmm, now i'm hungry:))

wow, how could char and i post the exact same minute!..or even find ourselves both inside on a glorious autumn day with Thanksgiving upon us...i am praying "dear Lord, thank you for the harvest, and for Gord" lol

here is a question for American's or non-Canadians: does Gord have any sort of accent that comes through in his singing, or even in interviews? other than "eh" and all those stereotypes i'm still not sure what a Canuck accent is, i don't say "abooot"

another question (rather than a fresh topic): what GL songs do you feel are most American in some way, i suppose geographically is most obvious...and i guess Black Day in July is obvious...i believe Bitter Green was written in a cab in London but I don't know if that trivia gives it any UK flavour

[RM]

here is a question for American's or non-Canadians: does Gord have any sort of accent that comes through in his singing, or even in interviews? other than "eh"

No

another question (rather than a fresh topic): what GL songs do you feel are most American in some way, i suppose geographically is most obvious...and i guess Black Day in July is obvious...i

None

[jj]

rm, you're brevity is exemplary

[charlene]

No



None

agreed.

[RM]

rm, you're brevity is exemplary

Thank you.

[charlene]

I was out gardening and am now heading out to cut the grass that seems to have grown 12 inches in thelast week. And it's HOT out there! Looks like Turkey weekend will be lovely!
Hope Gord and the boys grab a leg or two and enjoy a Canadian like T-day away from home and loved ones on Monday in Wisconsin, U.S.A...
I'm having roast pork and applesauce.
;)

[redhead]

Let me try this another way.

If one lives in Arizona and has been hearing the song Carefree Highway on and off for almost 40 years, isn't it understandable how they may come to perceive the tune as an "American Classic"? Most people don't delve that deeply to uncover the nationality of who wrote a particular song.

I am not disputing that GL was a popular performer in Canada before breaking open in the U.S., or that his perspective is anything other than what it is. What I am saying, however, is that the statement " I never thought if it as an "American" anything" sounds disparaging, particularly since he does spend so much of his time touring here. I honestly believe no disrespect was intended by the person reviewing the song.

In fact, I would consider it a high compliment if people felt my work has touched them in the place where they live and consider my words to have made such an imprint, that they choose to welcome me into being a part of their culture, regardless of where I was from.

redhead

[RM]

..or even find ourselves both inside on a glorious autumn day with Thanksgiving upon us...i am praying "dear Lord, thank you for the harvest, and for Gord" lol


Happy Thanksgiving.......will you be watching any football ?

[charlene]

re: "American anything" - the "anything" referred to the genre of music..nothing disparaging meant at all to Gord, the song or America/American fans.

I don't consider it to be "American" regardless of what genre it is slotted in by a music critic.
And I'm sure no disrespect was meant by the critic nor did I think it was disrespectful or in any way an effort to steal a Canadian away.
It's nice that folks love songs so much they take them as their own like some people in Arizona might feel about Carefree Highway, possibly because they don't delve into details.
That does not make it so however.

If I say that Woody Guthrie's "This Land is Your Land' is a classic Canadian Folk song it doesn't mean it is.
And if a music critic wrote that Gordon Lightfoot does justice to that "classic Canadian folk" song I imagine eyebrows would be raised. On both sides of the border..lol
It's not a Canadian folk song - even with Canadian locations replacing American ones in the lyrics.
It is a classic American folk song, beloved around the world that has been lyrically adapted by countries to make it more country-centric but it is definitely a classic American folk song.

I would assume that a music critic would know where a songwriter was from. The ordinary bloke out there might not feel the need to know details about a singer/songwriter of a song they like.
The issue being discussed isn't if a songwriter feels complimented or not when their music becomes part of local culture, wherever that may be..I'm sure they are and I'm sure Gordon is thrilled all these years later.

Football? There's football on??????
lol
It's baseball playoffs and hockey season!
lol

[jj]

Happy Thanksgiving.......will you be watching any football ?

naw, just baseball (our national pastime;) ....umm, that was a joke)

yeah, lots of good games from the western provinces and then there are the Argonauts that will have many of our own 'yahoos' unglued to their sets based on recent play...in our 9 team league you often only need to win about 30% of your games to make it into post season

we opened the Leaf season last night (with a win, so the Stanley Cup parade organizing committee is already i full swing) so the weekend buzz will be more centered around our first hockey night in canada (saturday) regular season game

i imagine those Raptors guys are also back at it...it's sports "overlap" season:)

there's commonwealth games also...i think golf season is done...either way, with the MLB, CFL, NHL, NBA all going, i could well be a single man come Tuesday:cool:

thanks for the well wishes

ps) i'm jesting about the sports really...it will be 2 days of winter prep chores and then a full day of rugrats running about the place, hopefully not armed (for a change) with their testing units or their nintendo DS thingies...we've not allowed our kid to have either (and he's threatening to contact children's aid over this issue!;))

[jj]

not to intentionally bring this thread back into Toby Keith land, but when a cover has been done by either an established, or even newcomer, there has typically been an interview clip or liner note saying what inspired them to take on the song...if one of the Toby promoters come across one please share it with us...it could be that his backup boys just like to jam to that signature groove and one day just threw a lyric sheet on his music stand...maybe there will be a live DVD version of the Bullets in the Gun tour and eventually a video of the performance (with toby's song intro) will appear on youtube:)

[jj]

If one lives in Arizona and has been hearing the song Carefree Highway on and off for almost 40 years, isn't it understandable how they may come to perceive the tune as an "American Classic"?

cool, is that really a kind of anthem in that area? even though CH is more of a concept, i read that he jotted down what he saw on the road sign and shoved it in the glove for future use...maybe that would be a good one for some country beefcake to revive

i'm gonna reply to my own question:

cold hands from new york? that's a stereotypical title, imo, and many eastern and west coasters in Canada itself would argue that Cold Hands from Toronto would also be a deserved title...even most citizen of Ontario itself like to pick on toronto 'the bad', lol

somewhere usa? i love the vibe of this track and it does make me think USA

canary yellow canoe?
...no? i suppose not, maybe an anthem for the poor yellowknivers out there

[redhead]

Char:

Your point about the music critic and how he should have known better is well taken. He should have.

The reason I was taken aback when I read “I never thought of it as an American anything” was because it came across as somewhat of a “them vs. us”, and I never even thought about it that way. I take you at your word when you say it wasn’t meant to be disparaging. We all love him.

With regard to your point regarding “just because someone thinks a song is a part of the culture, that doesn’t necessarily make it so”, please refer to my initial post when I said that “so when someone ERRS in thinking that a song is an “American Classic”, try to remember…” (“errs” being the operative word).

I sited Carefree Highway as an example because I work with a lady who grew up in Phoenix and according to her, many people our age who live there do love the song. I imagine that that is because in addition to referencing “home” (concept notwithstanding), it probably serves as a reminder of what was going on in their lives and in the culture when they first heard it as young people.

While I can’t remember exactly where I read or heard it, I believe Gordon himself has said that it was when he secured a management contract in the States that things really began to “break open” or "happen" for him. If I’m wrong, I’ll be more than happy to stand corrected.

You asked about the Beatles, Stones, etc., and if I consider them to be “American” rockers. No, I don’t. Do I consider their songs to be part of “American” culture? Absolutely, I do. Which isn’t to say that they aren’t also a part of Canadian, Australian, British, etc. culture as well, as it isn’t mutually exclusive. In fact, a show here in the States called MAD MEN recently played the song “Satisfaction” a few weeks ago as a cue to the audience that 1965 in America was being portrayed, and no one is arguing that Mick Jagger is American (although I’m not 100% sure as to the actual status of his citizenship, lol).

Note to JJ: with regard to Springsteen, go ahead and claim him if you like and I promise not to scratch my head. I always thought he was overrated, lol.

Thanks to everyone for your thoughtful and intelligent responses to my posts.

redhead

[charlene]

I notede the 'errs' in your initial post but the follow thru didn't match up with that concept.
While I too have read that Gordon said when he got new mngmt. things began to happen for him. I think that may be in reference to his career in the States and other countries. He had become a huge star at home and the evolution of his career and dreams were then on track to conquer the rest of the world.
I saw that episode of MadMen...I find so much of that show a flashback to my own father and mother...my father was an "Ad Man." The clothes/ furniture, products, music bring it all back...sometimes not in a good way tho.
I've thought Springsteen over-rated as well.
I think I've made it clear about the 'anything'..the issue was two-fold - whether it's 'american' and whether it's 'rock'..the 'anything' referenced the 'rock' part of the issue.
Disparaging isn't in my DNA...thoughtful discussion/not dismissal is what I like..
I'd like to think that those who have come to know me over the 10 years I've been a moderator at this fine site know I don't operate that way.
So, here's to thoughtful people who I am thankful for on this Thanksgiving weekend..
cheers!

I

[jj]

wow, pam...spewing insults across the ice, eh? sounds like the Can and USA girls olympics hockey final in Salt Lake, lol...seriously, i didnt' realize there was a generation of friction

thanks for the offer, redhead...we're in the minority (char included) it seems as i am not a fan either but i think he seems like a good man and can put on a show for those who like to soak up that sort of energy...i am keyed to check out the Darkness on the Edge of Town film cos that's album was the first i'd heard of him back in school and i played that LP very much and Racing in the Streets could be heard on repeat late at night...i am not into the Beatles either but talk about some great song writing, impressive, i'd like Paul's brain

i threw Bruce out there cos if i were an outsider i think a few artists come to mind when you think of certain nations...Gord is a guy who sang to our nation on national tv to bring in the new century and he's typically the chosen one who would appear on Parliament Hill for Canada Day, etc, etc...the same way i guess they had Toby leading July 4 festivities years ago with the RW+B anthem but i still think of the Boss (and a stars and stripes kerchief) when i think of the mighty USA

there's many international folks who lurk here...how's this for sign of the times and sign of the nation artists:

Canada - Lightfoot...it's not BNL is it (and songs about Kraft dinner)? lol
America - Springsteen....should it be Sheryl Crow?
UK - Paul McCartney? Mick? Phil Collins? Sporty Spice? lol
Sweden - ABBA? lol
Australia - Kylie? Olivia? Men at Work? ok, just how ignorant am i, mende?
Germany - Kraftwork? i have no clue really...where's Eva?
Ireland - Enya? The Coors gals?
Scotland - that hair makeover opera lady from that reality show? you know

glad the zany misperception has the all clear...i don't know if all saw that yet another new list came out with Sundown as chosen top 20 Canadian song/single of all time...i don't think it's spewing national imagery but i guess it's the infectious bass line, the classic lead solo, the harmonies, the Gord voice in it's prime not to mention the drone of that 'E gord chord voicing'

btw, 10 degree and getting colder is a tune that takes me south of the border:)

cheers

[jj]

the lead guy here should probably repeat the first solo lick 2x to give the next lick more impact, the way the studio cut is

well, looks like once he came to his senses and go note for note after all so i don't have to pull out my Sundown LP after all

feel free to enjoy this version (if you can get past the bouncing Asian chest)

http://aiting.com/MusicData/play/476849.html

hey, didn't sound too bad at all in the chorus when toby sang without the added harmony efforts...i guess they brought in the kick drum/snare to make sure the audience didn't nod off, lol

imo, the latter play out solo really died a slow death as did the song, and album...keith can chuckle all the way to the bank...well i can't think of anything else to draw out the thread and try hit the 100 reply milestone...cheers toby

[charlene]

Quote-originally posted by Pam:
If it was up to me to classify Sundown on American charts...country-rock. It's so awesome how his songs and fit or not quite fit. And he has songs which are jazzy (Make Way). spiritual, jivy, etc.

There are songs like CRT et al are classic Canadian folk songs and comparable to "This Land" to their prospective country of origin....but I wouldn't compare Sundown in the same way. Not a good analogy, Char. The reviewer was referring to Sundown. If Woody Guthrie wrote a song about Canada and for which greatly appealed to Canada...you may understand where we're coming from.

My mother's younger sisters (Gordon's age) once told me how when they'd go ice skating on the U. S. side of St. John's when they were in junior high and high school...they used to exchange insults and name calling, etc., with the Canadians across the border. The kind of attitude and distaste for Canada and Canadians remained throughout their lifetimes.

I once asked my mom (b. 1925) if she did this -i wanted to know because she always spoke with such love and pride for Canada and Canadians and couldn't imagine her doing this. She said it wasn't like that when she was that age...it changed by the next decade and generation for her younger siblings.

I know, historically where these types of extreme patriotic, nationalistic attitudes come from -how and when they arose and why. It remains to be part of that generation and that type of attitude has lessened in subsequent generations on both sides of the border...because the reason for this type of disrespect, distaste and even hatred no longer exists. Except for the hangers-on, most of the younger generation is now more like it was for my mother's generation. The generation that had the deepest ancestral roots in Canada.

I have no problem saying (in general) that I love Canada and i love Canadians and it's the truth and comes from the bottom of my heart.

Charlene, you wrote: "I don't consider it to be "American" regardless of what genre it is slotted in by a music critic."

It doesn't matter what you consider, it's not up to you and you're not an American and you're not able to be objective enough to even contemplate this. Sundown was released and charted here...it's an American classic here...created by an amazing Canadian. end quote.

Pam - who are you to determine what I should think or contemplate or if I am capable of even making that thought?
Who are you to judge and discount my thoughts with that disgusting 'it doesn't matter what you say" and "it's not up to you" sanctimonious attitude?
I never said it was up to me or my thoughts were the correct answer..
I stated an opinion with some reasoned explanations for it. You don't have to agree but you should keep your disparaging and dismissive comments out of it.
When did you become the judge and jury about anything? What a bunch of condescending, ignorant things to say.

I had an opinion just like Redhead, James and anyone else.
My opinion is as valid as anyone else's and Redhead had the grace and maturity to speak in respectful and reasoned words with no sense of personal putdowns or reverting to being dismissive and rude. Her misconception in what I said was cleared up without any stomach turning rudeness from her. She cleared up the "errs" issue for me with the same tactfulness and respect.

And then you take it upon yourself to determine whether my analogy is good or not. I think my point was understood by the others in this conversation.

I have no idea what you are talking about when you say "The generation that had the deepest ancestral roots in Canada."

Believe me, I know where you're coming from.

[jj]

... it's not up to you and you're not an American and you're not able to be objective enough to even contemplate this

oh my, i must say i didnt' read all your post the first time

once someone said, paraphrasing, that a non-musician could not appreciate or relate to GL music in the same way a musician could...i recall it offending many and probably with good reason...i quietly think i understand what the intent of the opinion was...by the same token, i dont think musicians get to appreciate the utopia that a non-musical person does when hearing a Gord tune, i really do and am somewhat envious

so i thought about that earlier during a misunderstanding in this thread...i hesitated to similarly express that a non-Canadian may not even be able to contemplate the inner experiences of the mind and heart of a Canadian when a Lightfoot tune is spun over the airwaves or on a personal player...i'm pretty sure that would not go over well even if it may have some truth for a good portion of his works, especially the ones about the land and spirit...the ones about relationships and the human condition i feel are universal...anyhow, your tone and swagger may have changed my tune

btw, i thought the This Land is Your Land was a good analogy ( i am an ignorant one who always thought the one and only version was the one that had all the Canuck references til a few decades ago, lol....sorry about that, lol )....i enjoy your musical posts ...i don't follow your rationale or motives with the non-musical ones so much, this last one reminds of the troublesome one about thanksgivings and football comparisons...maybe it's a seasonal thing and it will pass....why not try come up with a new light hearted musical thread?:) i'm pretty spent as you can imagine, lol....cheers

[jj]

rm, you're brevity is exemplary

your welcome... unfortunately, we appear unable to follow your lead...

...ok, i now see that both 'my' Twins and Reds are quite well positioned

[jj]

seeing as there are many review threads coming in regarding GL's latest US tour and the fact that many of the 100+viewers of this thread (with perhaps some double counting in there due to repeat 'offenders' lol) i was wondering if this thread might be moved to the Covers forum, maybe where it belonged all along

also, i've re-read the last few post by moi, the moderator and podunkler and i can't make much sense of any of them anyhow..i partially jest but i'm mostly being truthful about that...i read redhead loud and clear and thanks...just a thought

[RM]

As an Arizonan, I was wondering if perhaps another state could be used as an example in the discourse. How about Missouri ?

[charlene]

originally posted by podunklander: Who are you to determine(d) how Gordon thinks and should think, etc.? Canadian mindset..look at what you wrote. So if he's in the US and eats American food here....(fill in the blank yourself ______________________).

And you also seem to know what every "ordinary bloke" thinks and doesn't think or should think and do. Or what the music critic thinks or doesn't think. You seem to know and have an opinion about what and how everyone else thinks...and condemn them, judge, etc., and I find that very insulting, etc., even if it's not directed towards me. I feel offended for Gordon when you're channeling his every thought and breath into his Canadianism and using that to tell EVERYONE that if we think any other way about him...any tinge of American spirit, etc.,...then we're wrong.

You wrote: "It's nice that folks love songs so much they take them as their own like some people in Arizona might feel about Carefree Highway, possibly because they don't delve into details." Charlene...you don't make it sound very nice!! So they love it and call it their own because they're ignorant of the details???? wtf...you think this isn't condescending???

LOTS of things you said were really very offensive not really to me personally...but I felt for others (such as 'some people in Arizona') and I responded as such. It's ok then for you to insult every "ordinary bloke"?? I didn't even think that it was any major faux pas that the reviewer didn't mention Gordon and it's like you assumed that he didn't know or something. Many people know Sundown is Gordon's song. That he didn't mention it in that short blurb is too bad, but maybe he had a reason. Like maybe he assumed that it's well enough known, that he didn't have to say. (though of course, he should have to please you!)

I can disagree with your opinions if I want to! AND I don't have to think they're as valid as "any one else's". How come you you can disagree with other's opinion and how they think, etc. (such as 'some people in Arizona'), the validity of what they say or don't, etc., and I can't yours? I can't even begin to count how many people you've deemed as ignorant, etc just in this thread alone. And what they all should think or not. But it's everyone from Arizona to the NY highway and well, all points in the USA. end quote.

podunklander deleted her last post.

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