Bob Dylan-"I'm Not Supposed to Care"

[imported_Next_Saturday]

YouTube - Bob Dylan : I'm Not Supposed To Care

[joveski]

he played that one 2 or 3 times in 1998. i have the audio from Toronto 98 which i can upload. i cant find it on youtube, but here's a few clips from that great show

http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=bob+dylan+toronto+1998&search_type=&aq=f

[Cathy]

I think that's one of the worse covers I've ever heard.

Cathy

[Moosedog]

That was excruciatingly painful for me to listen to. One of my favorite Gord songs, and Dylan sucked the life out of it. LOL

[GJA]

You know, if I live to be a hundred I'll never understand why Bob Dylan is so popular. This cover is just sad!!

[jj]

I found this more 'soothing' than the last live recording that was shared

mr. jove, the link to his crooning of EMR doesn't work anymore?:

http://www.corfid.com/vbb/showthread.php?t=18577

ps) I noticed that a DGUffelman made a post at youtube under the comments
I assume it's our GL David and glad to see he's well (and his post is valid, imo)

[charlene]

ugh ugh ugh and ugh again.. awful, just awful.
ugh

[geodeticman.5]

Thanks Saturday - for that video.

I'd heard rumours of his [Dylan] maybe having done it [performed the song], but was not sure. I know the two artists clearly have different styles, to state the obvious, but in an odd way I like Dylan's casual approach to it. His style, virtually devoid of traditional singing ability in either a trained voice sense, or that of a naturally pleasing, inately musical singer, still manages to successfully impart [his] emotion to this song,imho, and intrinsically second to that, a respect by Dylan therefor of the song, and in turn the writer, since his delivery speaks of having meaning to Dylan on a personal level.

I also am reminded of an interesting comparison between Gordon and Dylan, probably no revelation to anyone else, but that is of the changed voices in both cases. Different, reasons, similar things to deal with sort of. My suburban legend understanding of Dylan's voice , changing mid-life , is one of a non-fans rough knowledge by word of mouth. No one need emphasize the weakness in that kind of "knowledge".

I heard he had a very bad motorcycle accident, head/brain injury, and among changes/losses were his old voice I remember from "lay lady lay" - a richer, more resonant voice. Were it not for his legenday status, even iconic, (I'll stop before prophetic..) most singers I think would have washed up in terms of performing....and perhaps continue just writing.

But his persona preceeds him, and it did not to my knowledge alter his following. It sure did his voice, but that I am extremely sympathetic to. Without unneccessary detail, long-timer corfidites already know of what I speak in head injury terms, but my brain injury changed my whole life in various ways; primarily in the temporary sense, some things longer but in the minority, and I feel for Dylan. I guess I would ask Dylan fans who know the before/after in some detail - did his demanour or personability change with it, eg his Award to Lightfoot mini-debacle ? That could explain many things.

And Lightfoot's voice, while I am allready shamefully off-thread, has been a difficult subject for all of us, imagine what its been for him.... No doubt years of smoking, drinking, and what not alone would have done to his voice, but then add on his medical events that he so bravely recovered from with admirable determination. His long-time cited personal hero in his profession has always been for the most part Dylan, also citing Ian & Sylvia and a few others, but Dylan stands out. And really for the first time, I am reminded that he and Dylan share a profound change in voice as a further criteria for relating to one another, perhaps.

Back to the video....
The pictures, well chosen, also add to this "personal" temporary ownership of the song. This temporary bundle of rights certainly does not extend to singing it as aesthetically pleasing as Gordon does, but by definition I am biased there, as a Lightfoot fan. Even objectively, Dylan can't sing in the traditional sense imho, but he performs it meaningfully; I like it.

This also lays to rest another small dillema in my mind - small ... and that is whether Dylan in fact had true respect for Lightfoot, aside from the the largely "behavioural" controversy during the Juno (was it?) Award- when Lightfoot held out for a few [Awards] in order that he might have it presented to him by Dylan. This conclusion of mine is with respect, setting aside the award thing, is solely based upon Dylan's choice to perform (and record??) the song, even perhaps the way he sang it, as if he... liked the lyrics and they spoke for him in that moment. And Lightfoot's cover of "Ring Them Bells" tells me much of his admiration for Dylan's music.

Apparently that presentation was a dissapointment to many Lightfoot fans (and to Lightfoot, I do not know, but it looked to be)- who felt that [and this includes me on this part] Dylan was less than enthusiastic in demeanour, indifferent in comport, perhaps... to the point of near disrespectfulness in his affect, indifference again might be more accurate to me of his *apparrent* but exanimate comport, to which I'd add - he is known to be eccentric among other things.

Perhaps, from some of his quoted statements of Lightfoot, notably [paraphrasing] "when I hear a Lightfoot song, I wish it would never end" he could arguably be *professionally* jealous of Lightfoot's composition, arrangement, singing, writing, and performing skills, but who knows ? After hearing.seeing this, I am now a bit more inclined to say "some people just don't know how to be gregarious or ooze smarmy admiration" when presenting an award... Dylan would never win any contests for on-screen M.C. personna... But then again, who knwos what was going through his head. Ithink instead of jealousy, it is my opinion that he just plain likes Gord's music. The only printed quotes I have heard, and the statement at the end of his video - all tell me he likes Gords music and has strong professional respect for him. Non-professional questions of "does he LIKE him, or are they in some kind of COMPETITION FOR 'KING OF FOLK' " would seem to me to be private and personal questions that despite the near-successful arguments that the media has the "right" to bare celebrities peronal lives to the world.

Whether this is true of not, as Lightfoot fans I have the impression, and definately the personal opinion, that Lightfoot's personal thoughts, friends, wives,girlfriends, children, and thoughts thereof are his own business we choose to not be invasive of.

All I know for sure in the Award debacle is how Dylan SEEMED TO ME TO BE ACTING....and HOW I FELT *REAL* BAD FOR LIGHTFOOT, WHOM I FELT SEEMED DEFLATED,,, AMIDST HIS ADMIRATION [for Dylan] AND THE PRESENTATION SEEMED TO BE LACKING A CERTAIN - "pardon my neo-French" - "ju ne se qua" for Gordon.

My heart was in my throat for Gordon, who after holding out and abstaining from many awards as story has it, must have been almost euphoric in anticipation of the presentation by Dylan. That euphoria must have quickly dissolved into anti-climactic let-down... nearing embarrassment and self-doubt in Lightfoot's mind aftwerwards,and during. He seemd non-plussed (SP?). One can only guess.

In absence of direct quotes from either of the two or their respective staff and recording companies P.I.O's even, who has the time or hubris to "guess" nearly all of this ?

Exception I would hold out on to the guessing would simply be my personal assessment of how Dylan acted imho, and how Gordon seemed deflated, almost at a loss for words; his typicaly humble demeanour endearing him to his fans only more as they felt for him at that moment by-and-large as its been said.


But I guess I'd be politely lying if I did not stand by what I did think of Dylan's attitude: breach of generally accepted norms of respectful behaviour, especially in the setting of presenting an award to a living Legend no matter the validity of the reason( maybe, Dylan, despite his difficult historical repute to be a virtual prophet or legend himself, a harbinger of societal change as an anti-hero, bearer of adulation was unfairly burdened by the excessive scrutiny that a suspected demi-god by the apparent polytheists in his "heyday's" turbulent times iconic peak, and understandably has had that weight on shoulders ever since. Naaaaaahhh .

He acted like a self-absorbed schmuck. And I know I am out of thread context too. I'm being a schmuck.
Sorry.... Also, I am vacillating in my apparent opinion of his awards show behavior, primarily because I am trying, unsuccessfully, to distinguuish between THAT event, as opposed to this video, which is quite the tribute to Lightfoot in its own way,
presenting an almost polar view of what I am only guessing on anyway. Oh well.

And then.... no matter how you see that Awards ceremony video of Dylan's "behaviour" when he did the gig, it IS safe to say that, while I have no idea whether Dylan had snorted, blown, popped, pilled, drank, tooted, bloated, or hooted or whatever it is all called before, or during his presentation to Lightfoot that may have led to his behaviour that was, undeniably, exanimate, without knowing anymore than an apparent absence of enthusiasm for unknown reason or reality, SAFE to say that he is once and for all in my mind, a solid fan and respectful colleague of Gordon's. What he said at the end of this cover video only capped it; performing it, however laconic in style, was proof positive for me within the context of at least respecting the man's music - he thinks much of Lightfoot. Thanks...
~geo steve

[charlene]

even if he thinks much of Lightfoot music, revers it even, holds it in the highest regard, it still was ugh to me..and made my dinner come back up..
lol
;)

[joveski]

Dylan: "every time i hear a gordon lightfoot song, i wish it would never end"

[geodeticman.5]

Char - U R Right. His singing, I don't care what a legend he is supposed to be, SUCKS.
And in that regard, its a terrible cover of Gord's beautiful song. LOL I liked the
way you put that. I think I was being a bit too charitable... . He sounded like a
drowning flying squirrel with adenoids and a deviated septum, compunded by
a chronic case of post-nasal drip and recurrent sinus infection that has borred
into his brain through the relatively thin bone there.

And his frontal lobe has
fallen out from too much wacky tobaccky- because I know as a goverment
employee that the U.S. G.S.A. - General Services Agency, says that "drugs are
socially unproductive", and we all know thats what was wrong with Dylan at
that Awards ceremony. Gordon Lightfoot does not write bad checks, and was
born to fight, so Mr. Dylan was awfully darn lucky he did not get punched in the
snoot, or all that snowey/blower/hoot would have fallen on the diaz.

LOL what was i thinking last night Char ? He stinks ! ROFLMAO oh my God he is bad.
I sincerely apologize to those who DO like Dylan, or respect him in any way. He just
....can't....sing. BUT THERE IS MORE TO SINGING THAN.....BEING ABLE TO SING...
WAIT...NO THERE IS NOT. lol sorry , really guys that do like Dylan.

~geo stve

[imported_Next_Saturday]

My reason for posting it was that I think Dylan did a great job! This version compares very favorably with Dylan's most recent hit "Beyond the Horizon". I think it's great when GL's songs get covered (with the exception of Canadian idol and most "performers" on youtube) It's interesting to hear the different interpretations.

And you have to love Dylan's comment at the end of the song,
"This song was written by Gordon Lightfoot--one of my favorite songwriters"

[GeoMan]

Dylan: "every time i hear a gordon lightfoot song, i wish it would never end"

"Everytime I hear a Gordon Lightfoot song, I wish it were Gordon singing it and no one else."

John

[spocksbrain]

Thanks, Geocitieman,

I appreciate your sentiments on this thread. I must say that some of you guys on Corfid are Lightfoot SNOBS and have totally closed minds, which is certainly something that Lightfoot himself, being an artist, would likely discourage. I am a huge Bob Dylan fan, so I am used to hearing lots of criticism from closed minded people who say "He can't sing," and that's all fine and dandy, but from a group of people who claim to be devotees of one of the greatest musical artists of all time, I would expect some sort of appreciation for one of America's greatest poets.

So Dylan did not write "The Watchman's Gone" or any other Gordon tunes. This seems to make him totally invalid to some of you. To just totally dismiss someone whose poetry is laden with enough symbolism and imagery to keep scholars studying for the next 200 years is indeed antiacademic, and qualifies some to be called obsessive about Gordon Lightfoot. Lightfoot is still my favorite over Dylan, but some of you guys certainly need to take a step back and sit on ice for a while before listening to your Lightfoot LPs again. This lambasting of Dylan, without regard to the merits of his work has really "ground my gears". He does not sing in a traditional manner, and never has. His voice has a purpose. It is like sandpaper against the soul as David Bowie once put it. When Dylan sings, people are forced to listen.

Dylan is also one of the worlds foremost experts on the history of recorded music, with an unparalelled record collection. His XM show is quite enjoyable and shows that when he compliments Lightfoot, it REALLY MEANS A LOT!. He rarely makes TV appearances, and so for him to come to Toronto and be on a Canadian TV show to show his appreciation for one of his favorite songwriters was a true gesture of respect and friendship. HOW MANY OTHER ARTISTS HAS DYLAN DONE THIS FOR?

People on this group have let their thoughts become stale over the years with pilgrimages to Massey Hall and an overflow of concert reports. A while back I wrote a short story about a trip that included a Lightfoot concert. Some people on this group called it a CONCERT REPORT!!!!!!!!!! I could not believe it. The story was twent nine pages long and they called it a concert report. Take a damn break from Lightfoot if call someone else's art a concert report.

Bob Dylan is popular because he is an artist. He reads his music like poetry and he personifies American music. He is rough, just as this country has been. His music is not gentle for the most part, because our country is not a gentle place. AND WHEN HE COVERED "I'M NOT SUPPOSED TO CARE", it was a huge COMPLIMENT to Lightfoot. At the end he said, "That song was written by Gor-don Lightfoot, one of my favorite songwriters."

That's my vent for now.
Peace

[spocksbrain]

And By the Way,
Dylan has not been on drugs in an awful long time.

[Cathy]

I agree he's a brilliant poet. I have a bunch of his older CDs and play them often. But with his voice as it is now, I'd rather hear him read his poetry than try to sing it. His voice was bearable when he was younger, but sadly....

Of course, you could say the same of Gord. We all know his voice isn't what it used to be. When I think of Gord singing a favorite tune, he's always singing in his '70s voice.

It seems to me that Bob tries to sound gravelly (sp?), like an old blues singer. I just don't enjoy that style of music.

Cathy

[jj]

... for him to come to Toronto and be on a Canadian TV show to show his appreciation for one of his favorite songwriters was a true gesture of respect and friendship. HOW MANY OTHER ARTISTS HAS DYLAN DONE THIS FOR?


hey, first I agree, Dylan has a way with words and delivering a phrase
I didn't realize he was considered one of America's finest poets, high praise

http://archives.cbc.ca/arts_entertainment/music/topics/743/#

there's a clip of the Dylan presentation at this link (the TV show was actually the somewhat traditional Juno Awards, a celebration of national talent, the Canadian version of the Grammys, which just happened to be televised) - I remember how anti-climatic it was after all the hype - I don't think the introduction was Dylan's finest writing but would make for a concise epitaph "Gordon M. Lightfoot... someone of rare talent and all that" - I would have preferred Tyson or any of a handful of other influences or influencees to be inducting Gord into the Hall of Fame but it was his choice and who can argue with that

I was serious when I said this cover was smoother than I expected (compared to live experiences) and it was a rare live recording where I could mostly make out what he was saying, even if I knew the words

all praise of artistic ability aside, I still don't think this performance would survive authentic gauges of talent such as the gong show, america's got talent, canadian idol, etc ...actually, I thought it was wonderful to hear the next generation of singer songwriter/musicians singing Gord covers, especially the CRT arrangement...I also enjoy the youtube covers as long as folks aren't singing along to the GL track itself

I don't know to what extent my GL fanaticism has left my brain stale (my brain is more like the Yeoman Janice's than Spock's, lol) but I am thankful this forum lives on and has such diversity of opinions, I don't think there is another place on the www where Gord is discussed..and the more concert reports the better, imo, but I am sorry I missed the trip short story (29 pgs sounds atleast medium) and will check it out, thanks ...keep the posts coming, I always enjoy yours

I conclude by truly thanking Dylan for teaching Gord how to write lyrics...and to more wholeheartedly thank him for not teaching Gord how to carry a melody

[jj]

"Everytime I hear a Gordon Lightfoot song, I wish it were Gordon singing it and no one else."

John

or:

"every time I hear a Gordon Lightfoot cover, I wish it'd never begun"

lol, good one, even though I do enjoy hearing alternate arrangements

[GJA]

even if he thinks much of Lightfoot music, revers it even, holds it in the highest regard, it still was ugh to me..and made my dinner come back up..
lol
;)

Ditto!!

[RM]

I conclude by truly thanking Dylan for teaching Gord how to write lyrics...and to more wholeheartedly thank him for not teaching Gord how to carry a melody

jj,

That's a most admirable display of gentle jousting.

I don't feel like a snob, and I also don't believe that Gordon Merideth Lightfoot or Robert Allen Zimmerman belong on a pedestal. Now, in the case of Ronald Meason, I'll need to contemplate further.

[jj]

jj,

That's a most admirable display of gentle jousting.

I don't feel like a snob, and I also don't believe that Gordon Merideth Lightfoot or Robert Allen Zimmerman belong on a pedestal. Now, in the case of Ronald Meason, I'll need to contemplate further.

what, RM, no middle name?

I admire the God given and well developed artistic talents Gord and many others possess ...as for Halls of Fame and the three hundred Awards shows out there, I find them very unnecessary (same for nightly Disney fireworks) but I usually enjoy about 20% of the live performances, about 2% of the acceptance speeches and about 1% of the fashions ...btw, as far as the Juno red carpet goes, I think Dylan was over-glittery in fashion but the gloves were a nice, tribute to Canada:)

[banjobench12]

Bottom line is that whatever you thought of Dylan it was clearly evident to me that Gord was happy Dylan was there and introduced him. That's good enough for me.

[charlene]

i could READ dylan poetry till the cows come home. i don't like his voice and i never have. that's not snobbery. i love kris kristofferson.many say he can't sing either but i like his 'singing'. lightfoot happens to have the trifecta - songwriting skills, musical ability to play instruments and a voice to pull it together for my ear. that is my opinion...gord doesn't have the voice of an angel any longer..dylan never had one to begin with and i am not a fan of that nasal sound he's always had - it hurts my ears. i don't like blue grass and a lot of country stuff mostly because of the sound of the voices. it's just a preference. i am also not a huge fan of female performers.. i love the male voice when it sings..and regardless of the fact that bob loves lightfoot i'm sorry but dylan does not sing to me..

oh and the naming of a trip report/concert review are interchangeable around here..
lol
they are bascially one and the same and no offense was meant in the wrong labeling of your posting..

[joveski]

dylan never had one to begin with and i am not a fan of that nasal sound he's always had - it hurts my ears. .


if any doubt about his voice, you should check out some of the gospel shows from 1979/80. even i was surprised how good he sings on those. and there's I'll keep it with mine, from 1965 and Moonshiner from 1963. i always say he can sing if he WANTS to!

[jj]

mr. jove, the link to his crooning of EMR doesn't work anymore?:

http://www.corfid.com/vbb/showthread.php?t=18577




found it....

YouTube - Bob Dylan and Clouds EARLY MORNIN' RAIN Self Portrait

also found the short story...my Mac can't open the attachment (.doc)

I always liked the Baez collection of Dylan covers, especially Sad Eyed Lady...fave Dylan vocal effort is probably from BOTT: If You See Her

I haven't owned a Dylan album since the late 90s Grammy winner that Lanois produced ...prior to that I listened repetitively to the raw collection of standards on Good As I've Been To You from the early 90s

I've always wished Gord would do a similar recording of just his voice (current tone is fine with me, love some of his fresh altered phrasings) and guitar (and hey, some harmonica too if he so chooses, lol)...what I'd really like is to hear some live Gord piano...dream on, j

[Scott Mac]

I find this whole dialogue a bit strange. Gordon has always been my favorite songwriter and I have several second favorites, with Dylan being one of them. Dylan paved the way for the singer/songwriter movement. Were it not for Mr. Zimmerman we may have never heard of Gordon or many other fine songwriters. It is a safe bet that Gordon's songs/career would have taken a much different path were it not for Dylan setting the stage. It is a huge compliment for Dylan to sing one of his songs as well as saying such nice things.

I love to hear different takes on songs and Dylan's cover is no exception.

[geodeticman.5]

I owe an apology to the room. The two posts I did were a study in not knowing when I am not up to writing respectfuly, and in good taste, of Dylan OR Lightfoot or anything. I should not have written those when I did.

The second of the two, where I poorly attempted to vent my thoughtless humour of Dylans.. singing ability, was in fact meant, however misidrected in my effort, to be a bit of irony and humour, as if I were mocking my own previous longer post of trying to see/hear/appreciate the Dylan video. I also should not have mixed in the dead horse of the awards presentation.

I was in a very difficult mood, pain, mourning for my wife, and needed to cut up a little on the second one, the first was my more thoughtful take, but still in the wrong frame of mind with liberties taken and assumptions made I pride myself typically in NOT taking..

In either case, and for whatever reason, there is no excuse for the lambasting I did of Dylan's video and singing ability, and the awards ceremony, because it was in poor taste and disrespectful of those in the forum who appreciate Dylan with a more refined and educated knowledge of his body of work and contribution to our culture, music; agent of change as an undeniable folk movement prime mover, and a host of other things we may thank him for.

I truly apologize. Thankfully and fortunately, no one has taken me directly and harshly to task for this (SPOCKSBRAIN, did you mean geodeticman vs geocitieman, did you mean me ?) - if so, you were taking it easy on me, thank you for the balanced thoughts.

Rather than mentioning each of you by name as I am inclined to do out of respect, rather, please know I have respect for each and every one of your posts. Also, my uncharacteristic posts, very notably the second one, were not representative of my heartfelt thoughts of people's musical and lyrical appreciation for both artists.

Everyone that knows me knows I find Lightfoot to be a truly masterful artist, and my favourite in folk, but I do acknowledge Dylan's heavyweight impact and influence, if not shaping, of folk. His voice and manner of singing are an individual taste. As I said in the first post, I did actually find his choice to cover Lightfoot's INSTC to be a professional compliment,.

Please, to all of you, accept my apologies for writing on two days I should have not written posts on. You were remarkably tolerant of my thoughtless words. What I am in fact going through is NO excuse, as we all are going through SOMETHING(S) difficult, and I do not suffer a whiner myself; hence I will not ask you to either.

Instead, I take responsibility for my posts, and would choose to never have written them. We are all here in this forum for too important a reason - to respectfuly share our varying thoughts and opinions, with some common threads...and one of those common threads should be tasteful and respectful carriage of ourselves in discussing others' points of view, or artists whom others admire more than I.

I do not deify Lightfoot, that would be unhealthy. He's just damn good, and Dylan is damn good to a large following as well , which I tip my hat to tonight, and back out of the bar slowly...... goodnight/morning :)
~geo steve

[spocksbrain]

Yes, geodeticman, I did mean you. My condolences, by the way.

My post was a vent. I get tired of reading about how others just don't measure up to the venerated Gordon Lightfoot. When Dylan was attacked, I just blew my top. I won't apologize for that, because I still feel my sentiment was valid, even if my words were a bit harsh. When I said that brains were getting stale, I meant that some folks are sooo far off into the world of Lightfoot and his ilk that they forget thatother artists and other styles of music are just as valid. You've got to admit that Gord has not exactly kept up with any social commentary. Every now and then it is nice to get a poet or songwriter's perspective of the state of the worl. Gord has opted out of such and Kristofferson and Dylan have certainly been taking up the slack in that regard.

As far as the concert report thing goes, It was a SHORT STORY, with only a paragraph or two devoted to Lightfoot. This is exactly what I mean. Some of us are so wrapped up in the cloudy world of Gord that they cannot distinguish one form of writing from the other. I generally like and appreciate everyone here, so please don't take this as hateful, but get out a little more and read a book! No, not Don Quixote either for God's sake. Read something non- Gord related, and then you might see that every form of writing that is posted here is not a concert report. That story was meant for entertainment, not for.....

All righ, enough of that. Thanks to all of you who are appreciative of other singers/poets/songwriters.

BTW, about the "dead horse", Dylan's appearance at the Juno Awards delamed it. If Tyson had presented Lightfoot with the award, it would have proven that the Canadians responsible for that show had an extremely narrow scope. It was a good thing.

Ta Ta for now!

[jj]

so please don't take this as hateful, but get out a little more and read a book! No, not Don Quixote either for God's sake. Read something non- Gord related

lol, unless you were being serious, I find this hilarious, not hateful

ok, I am picturing the typical corfidian: they read the IYCRMM biography from start to finish, then starts all over again! - they play GL cds from dawn to dusk and v.v - they wear their Massey Hall gathering t-shirts until they can stand on their own, the t-shirts I mean... i could go on, would make for a cute sketch, in my opinion

I would say spocksbrain's personal opinions come across as statements of fact - they're just opinons and I enjoy them as much as the next guy or gal's - ok, onward...I mean, Lightfoot Forward :)

[RM]

ok, I am picturing the typical corfidian: reads the IYCRMM biography from start to finish, then starts all over again (in Rainman-like fashion) - they play GL cds from dawn to dusk and v.v - they wear their Massey Hall gathering t-shirts until they can stand on their own, the t-shirts I mean...

Hey !! Quit reading my mail !!!

This whole thread is absolutely amazing to me. I don't understand why so many defense systems are being triggered. If you never hear from me again, you'll know that I found a Dylan forum and 'dissed him.

It's all hilarious.

[charlene]

I for one read a lot..a lot of variety as well.
I did not say Dylan can't sing. I said he doesn't and never did have the voice of an angel I don't like his singing. I also don't like Merle Haggards singing or several other artists I could name..like some of the country artists out now..it's a preference. I don't measure Lightfoot by anyone else..not even my beloved Kris. They are all different. Dylans lyrics are monumental, inspiring, thoughtful and soul searing..the music is wonderful..I just prefer to hear others sing his tunes. and I appreciate his admiration for Lightfoot tunes and I appreciate that he voices that admiration. No problem there..and I appreciate that Gord does the same.
Preferring Lightfoot's voice over anyone else does not diminish their value in anyone else's eyes..just as hailing Bob does not diminish Lightfoot in mine. Praise for one doesn't automatically mean scorn for another or for those who are fans of the other..

While we all have opinions and feelings about these two we don't need to be questioning what we have forgotten, what we read or if brains are stale.

The validity of one person's thoughts hold for all regardless of what they are and judgements about personal things is not required to make a point.

I know Gord hasn't kept up with social commentary..that's fine with me.. I have other ways of keeping up..and some of it is by listening to folks like Dylan and my beloved Kris etc. who do write about current events. Doesn't make them better tho..Doesn't make them worse.. Just makes them different than Gord and every other person out there entertaining the masses.....

Short story/concert trip/concert review/travel report/pictography... omigoodness.. some of my posts comprise all of them and more! lol
I don't care what they're called..I write them for me and if folks enjoy them then that's a bonus. Some call them too long, some call them other things....oh well.. c'est la vie..

It's all entertainment..

[Cathy]

Can you imagine what a boring place this world would be if we all liked the same music? There would be no variety at all.

I've found, as I get older, my taste in music has changed. Dad really wanted me to play the fiddle. I wouldn't, because I though it was too old fashioned. And I would never, ever, listen to bluegrass! Now, I enjoy it, and I play both the fiddle and the banjo. When I was a teenager, I wouldn't be caught dead listening to country. It wasn't the 'in' thing. It was rock for me... CCR, BTO, Rolling Stones, and many more. Now I rarely listen to rock, and prefer country and folk.

My point being... I'm glad we all have different tastes in music, different favorite singers. It's a choice we all make, and doesn't make one person's opinions any more valued than that of another person.
Personally, I like Dylan's music and I think he influenced popular American music in a way no one ever did before, or will ever do again. But I'm sticking to my guns... Not Supposed To Care is definitely not one of my Dylan favorites.

Cathy

[spocksbrain]

Hey you guys,
I just want you all to kinow that I am in a much lighter mood today! I didn't necessarily mean to lambast (there's that word again) anybody. I will go no further with any explanations right now. I think most of you caught my meaning. Anyhoo, I love the book Don Quixote, btw, what of it I have read thus far. I loved the comment about Yeoman Janice, though I don't remember who it was that made it.

As for concert reports, what the hell- I'll be making a big one when I get back from the Little Rock show in October. It may even read like a short story, Lol.

I will be the first to admit and proclaim that Lightfoot fans are generally more stable and predictable than Dylan fans anyway. I've been to some , uh, rough Dylan show, but thankfully, never any rough Lightfoot shows.

Cathy, Char, I don't really know you, but you seem like kind and lovely ladies. I appreciate your posts. Even before I started posting regularly, I kept up with corfid and will continue to do so.

And last, I say that if my brain were to have to get stale (if it is not already) than I would want tit to get stale on Lightfoot music.

Now I am off to watch Shadowlands, the movie about CS Lewis and wife. Have a beautiful day, all.

[SherylKat]

I was NEVER a big Dylan fan - I was a little young when he was so popular. I did like an album he did in the mid-1970's, can't remember the name of it but it had "Mozambique" on it and "Sara" (written for his wife). I think the only other song I ever liked was "Lay Lady Lay." Never saw why he was such a big deal, or why it was a BIG DEAL when he "plugged in" in what - 1965? I know Gord admires him tremendously - maybe it's a musician thing that we don't understand...

[SherylKat]

Hi spocksbrain - I hoped you like "Shadowlands." I thought it was a TERRIFIC movie. So, your thoughts?

[jj]

Dylan's appearance at the Juno Awards delamed it. If Tyson had presented Lightfoot with the award, it would have proven that the Canadians responsible for that show had an extremely narrow scope. It was a good thing.




dammit, Jim...they've stolen spocksbrain's brain! ;)

hey, just wanted to give the nod in agreement re it being a good thing in that the hype boosted ratings and as many have said, it pleased Gordon very muchly

my opinion (as well as a family member who was one of those CBCites responsible, in part anyhow, for that and many other like productions) remains that the Dylan > Gord HOF induction presentation was possibly THE lamest of all time - I gotta say that I do feel a more appropriate appearance and presentation by Dylan would have been at the Canadian Songwriters HOF ceremony - I've a hunch Bob would've dug that event a lot more and it would've been a more rootsy (if it wasn't a word, it is now) evening

I'm too ignorant of history to join in the debate about which came first, Guthrie or Dylan or Gord or the chicken or the egg but I still think a Tyson > Gord presentation at those Junos would have filled that large room with immense warmth and sent a chill over the tv airwaves and across the nation....btw, Gord commenting on For Lovin' Me:


"...Peter Yarrow (of Peter, Paul & Mary) saw something in it, a tongue-in-cheek sort of approach to the situation. Fortunately for me, it became a big hit. I was happy to have been a part of their career. It was their recording, along with Ian & Sylvia (Tyson)'s help, that opened some doors in New York City that got me where I wanted to go."


ps) I'd also like to read your movie review, for I'm always looking for a good referral ...the last one i saw in theatre was Kung Fu Panda ...as you can tell, I'm not only very well read but I'm also quite a film buff, lol

[geodeticman.5]

-sigh of relief- I enjoyed reading all the warm and respectful comments this evening.

Did Dylan lay down tracks on a CD with the song ? Seems unikely a video without a CD recording of it. I may have missed this part. Curious..

Hey all of U have a fine evening, or whatever time it is in your longitude of this world we call home....

-geo steve

[jj]

oh, I wouldn't call that youtube file a "video", just a fan montage, no?

others here would know better than I but from what I understand, it only exists on live recordings such as the (controversial and now legendary, lol) youtube one plus the ones joveski has shared previously ...it seems to be on a bootleg collection called From the Vaults but that is also a live version

because some GL fans had been discussing Dylan and INSTC at a pub in May, the first thing I did following the Massey 2008 was hunt once again for a BD studio recording, no luck

ps) thanks, U2!

[joveski]

he played a great version of the song in Toronto, 29 Oct 1998. the whole show is on an audience DVD, but i cant find the clip on youtube. the one posted above in this thread is from a show earlier in the year, and isnt as good.

[spocksbrain]

I don't exactly know how I came to have the username spocksbrain, being that my brain is nowhere near well ordered and logical. Hmm

As for Shadowlands, it is a very moving picture. Anthony Hopkins surprises with a very subdued performance. His refined persona on and off screen made him a perfect choice to portray Lewis. The movie was about pain and spirit. Pain is something we all experience no matter how hard we try to insulate ourselves from it and spirit is how we get through it. As Lewis put it in the film, pain is part of the overall picture. He lectured on it without having had a very painful adult experience. He attempted to put up barriers to keep it from happening to him, but God sent Joy Gresham, and there was nothing he could do about it, but go through the experience. The movie did a good job of getting me to take the ride with him. It was definitely a high grade tear jerker. Debra Winger was beautiful as always. The genuine Anglican music was spectacular as well. As I sit here at work each day, I often wonder where my wife will come from. Watching Shadowlands reminds me that God has it all planned out. CS Lewis tried to resist getting close to people, but when she came along, there was nothing he could do about it. It is a charming story. I recommend it, and I am quite the critic.

This might be a good topic for another thread, but what songs of Gord's do you see as the most spiritual, if not necessarily the most religious. I know that religion in his music has been discussed recently, but I am speaking of something deeper than religion. What songs cover the search for God and our reconciliation with the maker?

Peaceful Waters comes to mind right away. Shellfish would be another.

[brink-]

I love Dylan's "Hurricane" spectacular.

[Cathy]

I agree with you on that one, Brink. Hurricane's a great song.

Cathy

[jj]

I'd like to know specifically -how he learned lyric-writing from Dylan. Was it from just listening? Or did Dylan sit down with him and teach him? Critique any of his songs perhaps?

I think he just meant he heavily "influenced" him, probably more than anyone else ...you know, regarding song structure, word play, license, etc ...but who knows what went on during any overlapping time in the Grossman office ...I'd be surprised if either can remember much, lol

I didn't realize Bob was nervous on TV...he must be on stage also cos he didn't even say boo to our Massey audience when I saw him ...you'd think with all that experience, he'd not be intimidated, even a ham:)


>ok, another Songbook quote from Gord (do we not all know these?)

STATION MASTER
It has a very strong Bob Dylan undercurrent. He's been a very big influence on me throughout my career, and this song is about as close as I get to showing it.


post edit:

from the wonderful Lightfoot Odds and Ends section at www.Lightfoot.ca I see a few more Dylan related tidbits...my question is "where is this film footage? ie. ever released?"


"When Lightfoot played two shows on Bob Dylan's Rolling Thunder Revue in1975 in Toronto, Dylan dedicated 'Dark As A Dungeon', an old folk standard Lightfoot used to perform, to Lightfoot at the first night's concert."

"After the first night's Rolling Thunder Revue concert in Toronto in 1975, Lightfoot invited the entire revue back to his house for a post-concert party. Dylan, who was making a film at the time, recorded Lightfoot singing 'Ballad In Plain D' in an upstairs bedroom."

[Cyaneyes]

I heard he had a very bad motorcycle accident, head/brain injury, and among changes/losses were his old voice I remember from "lay lady lay" - a richer, more resonant voice.

That motorcycle accident - which there is no evidence ever actually happened other than Dylan's saying so - happened in July 1966, three years before Lay Lady Lay. The voice he used on Nashville Skyline was just an affectation.

[geodeticman.5]

CYANEYES , No kidding ? You know, to non-Dylan fans, that is a widely-held belief I recall as an urban legend of sorts when i was a teenager and young man - that of Dylan's voice changing after his alleged motcycle accident, from Lay-Lady-Lay.

I have to say - I liked that song, and found the voice- for Dylan or not, pleasing. So it was an affectation ? I can hear my wife typing at home to a psychologist's recorded voice notes for medical transcription our home-business at the time, where he (the psych she typed for, or LCSW etc)always started out on each patient, who had had a head injury most typically, he would say "This patient presents with a broad and bright affect, oriented times 3". I have a better feel now for what he may have meant by that. Thanks for the revelation.

As you seem a Dylan afficianado, who wrote and sometimes recorded the almost archetypal folk songs of the era , many of which I think Dylan wrote but did not sing, if memory serves, the voices I recall on *some* sound like Peter, Paul, and Mary, singing "If I Had a Hammer" , and either them, or the Kingston Trio singing , Dylan's again , I believe ("The answer is")"Blowin'In the Wind" ? I realize this is folk 101 I should know, but I have always been Lightfoot-centric on my folk tastes, albeit widely varied on other genres.

Your educating me here on this would be of actual historical value to my knowledge base ( or lack therof) out of respect to Dylan's part in the whole history of Folk. And is it true to say, as I have heard, in part or in full, the subjective comment "There would be no Dylan if there had been no Ramblin' Jack Elliot, and Woody Guthrie before that" - in ostensibly the "true" origins of folk, in the modern sense.

Its my understanding that folk, as a broad subject, is not a time period defined by certain people, but rather the genre in any culture/any time period that deals primarily with the homespun, layman's (versus professional songwriter) songs about that region, country, time period, culture, colloquial expressionism of commonly, the means of local labour, its dangers, the geographic and locals' names of local features, i.e. "The White Cliffs of Dover", and The Ash Grove", "Greensleeves" - which I know transcends genre from Christmas tune to folk heritage song etc. , and one more iconic song "Dirty Old Town".

A very nice album that encompasses a great selection of such representative classics of at least a celtic, if not just Anglo-Saxon suite of pleasant "Folk Songs Of Our Time" - by Roger Whittaker, of "The Last Farewell" notoriety, released in around 1978 or so. These songs were recorded by him before he seemed to get rather histrionic in dramatic presentation of singing in concert, where he'd later in his career get dressed-up in song-specific (Send In the Clowns....hoo by lol) get-ups that needlessly distracted from his magnificent voice in the mid - late 70's.

I've seen that youtube and Stonewall's vistory team are fond of many of these oft-recorded in the 60's somewhat white-washed ( no humour intended at all) collections of folk that sadly do not reflect what I believe to be be vastly important *historically imperative to chronicle" cultural fok songs , of which I believe folks original roots are firmly seated in , in any given culture or "under-class" - socio-economically, or by virtue of sad songs of indentured servitude.

Like slavery, such powerful, richly heartfelt cried-out for justice-type songs that when covered by some mid-to late 60's W.A.S.P. (no derogatory slang meant or implied) harmonius folk groups, lose something culturally and historically of a struggling people, or subset of a regional or time-period based working people or slave-state, when hardship-driven modes of thought arguably created our most important folk music?

As a well-informed sounding folk fan, I am curious of your take on the Dylan Q's, and the general folk-genre Q's of origins, and what may render Dylan-centric thoughts of folk origins to be academic. Or, more fairly, accurately place him in his admittedly important role in the modern progression of folk. I know little of this, so any thoughts at all are appreciated.

~geo steve

[BILLW]

Regarding Dylan's voice on Nashville Skyline: it was sort of a 'country' album by the standards of 1969 and I always thought when it came out that he was just using his 'country' voice - sort of like I slip into when I visit folks in South Carolina. Johnny Cash, who I think knew a thing or two about music and songwriting, had this to say at the time in a little poem he wrote.

"Of Bob Dylan"

There are those who do not imitate,
Who cannot imitate
But then there are those who emulate
At times, to expand further the light
Of an original glow.
Knowing that to imitate the living
Is mockery
And to imitate the dead
Is robbery
There are those
Who are beings complete unto themselves
Whole, undaunted,-a source
As leaves of grass, as stars
As mountains, alike, alike, alike,
Yet unalike
Each is complete and contained
And as each unalike star shines
Each ray of light is forever gone
To leave way for a new ray
And a new ray, as from a fountain
Complete unto itself, full, flowing
So are some souls like stars
And their words, works and songs
Like strong, quick flashes of light

From a brilliant, erupting cone.
So where are your mountains
To match some men?

This man can rhyme the tick of time
The edge of pain, the what of sane
And comprehend the good in men, the bad in men
Can feel the hate of fight, the love of right
And the creep of blight at the speed of light
The pain of dawn, the gone of gone
The end of friend, the end of end
By math of trend
What grip to hold what he is told
How long to hold, how strong to hold
How much to hold of what is told.
And Know
The yield of rend; the break of bend
The scar of mend
I'm proud to say that I know it,
Here-in is a hell of a poet.
And lots of other things
And lots of other things.
-- Johnny Cash

Bill :)

[geodeticman.5]

BILLW : WOW ! I had no idea what a poet-laureate Johhny really was... my wife's favourite...was Johny Cash, secondly, Gordon Lightfoot, and now I know why, among other things , she liked Johnny Cash so much - his lyrics are indeed powerful, and articulate - as was his voice - powerful. No the image I had in my mind of out-dated norms of country-music, where I have heard repeatedly that THAT is where the lyrics are lately in NEW music.

This, of course, excepting Gordon, I should say rather not acknowledging Lightfoot, who among non-Lightfoot fans, are hardly aware of his newest releases outside of the Lighthead following, imho. I gauge this from the reaction I sadly endure when I go to Best Buy, - a good local source for CD's, and the sales-kid says "Gordon WHO?" - we've all discussed this, but my point is I simply have more respect, growing dayly, for Country music - lyrics especially.

My only categorical distaste for Country is going away as well - that of the "twangy" sound, real or affected (not e-ffected) that typified so many (& many not at all) country artists in the 60's and maybe the 70's.

But even I saying that, I realize I bought cross-over country in the 70's when I bought Alabama, Don,,,,dangit,, ( he sang I believe in you) =WILLIAMS thats it... and many other cross-over country artists. Just goes to show, as usual, the roots of prejudice are indeed by definition- prejudging, something/someone that we are not well-informed of eg ignorant of, or fear, also being a hallmark of prejudice.... i catch myself fully, brakes on ABS stop, of forever discarding any pre-concieved notions I had about country.

I also like the new "John David Carrol" - I think his name is, who sings in a great video ....like I said..like I SAID..."I Can Sleep When I'm Dead" . He was the son of a preacher, who was not allowed to sing secular music in the home. He left home at 18, went to college, got a degree in a liberal art I think, and started recording with a bass voice that I thought got buried in time with my father, and Johhny Cash. All my mis-conceptions of country are dissolving, and not just in lip-service... I find myself listening to satellite-TV contemporary Country channels and enjoying much of what I hear.

on -thread - Dylans affectation of voice per Cyaneyes, I believe, on Lay-Lady-Lay, I am curious to hear a reply on that post, page 2 this thread. The voice I thought was pre-motorcycle crash. Not so I hear.

Yes BillW, Cash's poetry/lyrics are indeed Powerful , and I am given to thinking of my wife's favourite in a new light......fueling the very necessary and ultimately beneficial grieving process as I think of her in that regard -"Now I know WHY she spoke so highly of Cash".

I think of popular but fun generic folk, (yes ?) of the 60's with one of the songs in my myspace playlist - Jimmy Dean singing "Big John" or "Big Bad John"
"he was about 245, kind a wide at the shoulder and narrow at the hip"
"and everybody knew you didn't give no lip to big John" - great song - is that homogenized 60's country ? or folk ? I like it - just as I do the pop folk std's of Dylan's - "Blowin in the Wind" and "If I had a Hammer" - early stuff I think in a way was more powerful to the masses, notably of people ignorant of Dylan's whole body of work , as I am , and have demonstrated. But open-minded, I am learning more and more....about Dylan, and Cash.

I gotta say the MOST powerful set of folk lyrics IMHO IS indeed a slave-originated ( I think) song that Joan Baez did in concert - hard to find - and I am looking for it again lately - ''Ain't gonna let nobody...turn me around...turn me around"......repeat refrain.....then.. "gonna build a brand new world."
Those - are powerful words - and I know not of Joan's origin, but to me is an example of the page 2 this thread long post I wrote on the cultural under-class strife - as in this song which I believe to be of slave origin from my "Mudcat" lyrics website reading.

And of cultural significance of a struggling people, just now getting their ground-legs in most parts - not all - of the country - in equal regard in the workplace , etc., though I know the strong argument to the contrary of that, by many African-American's (and other blacks, many of whom carry my last name, moreso than "white" people, and many from celtic Anglo Scotland...where my last name is from .....interesting)..........

BTW in my playlist - "Big John" - is misnamed in the URL to myspace's built in source of 2300 -odd songs I drew from , sadly only 23 were of Gordon's, I must add other URL sources to Gord, and Johhny, and Dylan, instead of what playlist's source had a plethora of - Sinatra - who I like - but not 2/3 of my 100 song playlist worth !

~geo Steve

[RM]

I like it - just as I do the pop folk std's of Dylan's - "Blowin in the Wind" and "If I had a Hammer" -


Pete Seeger and Lee Hays wrote "If I Had A Hammer".

[BILLW]

Great thread, no ? Why ? Not sure - but I like it, LOL. It was around the time of Nashville Skyline when I realized that all these guys really liked each other and partied together. Hippies ? Rednecks ? At the same party ? Wow did it open my eyes to the real ties that bind and that we were ALL in this together. And once I heard The New Riders Of The Purple Sage doing Merle Haggard tunes I went on a 'bender' (do they still use that word ?) that lasted about 3 weeks.

Sorry too much info there but what great memories you guys stir up. You gotta love the corfid family even when we veer off and back on topic sort of like an amusemnet park ride.

Thanks for cheering me up - rough day at the Farm today - LOL.

Bill :)

[charlene]

cluck cluck cluck bill

[closetcanadian]

That motorcycle accident - which there is no evidence ever actually happened other than Dylan's saying so - happened in July 1966, three years before Lay Lady Lay. The voice he used on Nashville Skyline was just an affectation.

Dylan was asked many years ago by an interviewer why his voice was so clear and rich on the "Nashville Skyline" album. Dylan laughed at the question and said " the answer is simple - I quit smoking for six months. You quit smoking, you can sing like Caruso!" Wish I could footnote this for authentication but I cannot recall where I read this about Dylan...

[joveski]

that was the 1978 Playboy interview when he said that..

[closetcanadian]

that was the 1978 Playboy interview when he said that..

Thanks Joveski. Guess that speaks volumes about my choice of reading material! lol :)
In my defense, I was a very young man in 1978 and I'm sure I bought that issue of Playboy specifically to read the interview with Dylan. ;)

[joveski]

of course!. its always for the articles!

[Patti]

Thought I might add my 2 cents:


The depths of brotherhood that they share
Cannot be broken by those that compare
Them to one another without even a care.
What is forever? And will you be there?

[geodeticman.5]

And I would add this Lightfoot excerpt from "The Soul is the Rock":

The soul is the rock and the rock will always roll
In circles 'round the sun doing rings around the pole
When the mind is not sure what the heart will do next
The rock becomes the master and the road becomes what's left

and...

The soul is the rock and the rock will not be harmed
Though man must be cheated just as woman must be charmed
And the mind is the light for the heart which cannot see
The soul becomes the stranger but the rock will always be

Lyrics and their poetic, important context when done by thought provoking artists like Gord, Johnny, and Dylan, all carry some not-often heard closely but very poignant, soul-stirring thoughts..... it is well worth listeingin closely to our singing songwriter's actual words isnt't it ? They stand alone as sage advice often, moreso than just poetry and prose....

I'lll hand it to Dylan and really, all 3, their word are powerful, and do carry, as Podunklander said - the powerful tradition of the regional folk culture to the next generations in the form of lyrics in "popular folk" - and so it carries on...

I agree Podunklander......point well made. I am sure we could find prose from all 3 that would stagger the picture whe might have had of the artist prior.

Different facets of the same person, they seem to be. Some, more rough-cut than others, but nevertheless gem facets all the same.

~geo steve

[Patti]

Hey ~geo steve, those lyrics you mentioned in post #52 - here they are. (Tried posting them a couple times before, but still trying. lol Couldn't get your paragraph from your quote right.) Pretty cool song. I used to sing along to some of her songs on an album I still have of hers called "Farewell, Angelina" I especially liked Satisfied Mind.

Joan Baez - (ain't gonna let nobody) turn me around Lyrics
Album: From Every Stage



Ain't gonna let noboby turn me around...
turn me around...
turn me around...
Ain't gonna let noboby turn me around...
Keep on a-walkin'
Keep on a-talkin'
Gonna build a brand new world.

Ain't gonna let the administration turn me around...
turn me around...
turn me around...
Ain't gonna let the administration turn me around...
Keep on a-walkin'
Keep on a-talkin'
Gonna build a brand new world.

Ain't gonna let no first-strike policy turn me around...
turn me around...
turn me around...
Ain't gonna let no first-strike policy turn me around...
Keep on a-walkin'
Keep on a-talkin'
Gonna build a brand new world.

Ain't gonna let Indira Ghandi turn me around...
turn me around...
turn me around...
Ain't gonna let Indira (how'd she get that name?) 'round...
Keep on a-walkin'
Keep on a-talkin'
Gonna build a brand new world.

Ain't gonna let that Henry Kissenger turn me around...
turn me around...
turn me around...
Ain't gonna let that killer Kissenger turn me around...
Keep on a-walkin'
Keep on a-talkin'
Gonna build a brand new world.

Ain't gonna let nobody turn me around...
turn me around...
turn me around...
Ain't gonna let nobody turn me around...
Keep on a-swingin'
Keep on a-singin'
Gonna build a brand new world.

[geodeticman.5]

Thanks Patti now I know what album to look on for the Baez protest song. I appreciate the post.

~geo steve

[imported_Next_Saturday]

I'm not inviting negative comments-just posting a new version for those of us who appreciate the genius of both Lightfoot & Dylan:
YouTube - Bob Dylan - I'm not supposed to care

[vlmagee]

You know, whatever one may think of Dylan's singing these days, the fact that - with his own enormous catalog of brilliant songs - he still chooses to cover a Gord song is a huge compliment to Gord. We should all appreciate that, even if we don't happen to like Dylan's vocals ... And, at least he played guitar, which is more than he is doing this tour. But I enjoyed the concert (and the experience) anyway!