Do you think the song ',For Lovin Me,' is chauvinistic?

[Jesse Joe]

http://www.colorradio.com/Pictures/fleetwoods/for_lovin_me.gif


Do you think the Gordon Lightfoot song,"For Lovin Me," is chauvinistic? :(


In the 60's, 'The Women's Right' movement, gaved him "heck" about that song. He told an interviewer, that he still performs it today on occasion. He said, "It's a good one, it depends on how you look at it"... :)


For Lovin' Me, ©1966 by Gordon Lightfoot

That's what you get for lovin' me
That's what you get for lovin' me
Everything you had is gone, as you can see
That's what you get for lovin' me

I ain't the kind to hang around
With any new love that I've found
'Cause movin is my stock 'n trade, I'm moving on
I won't think of you when I'm gone

So don't you shed a tear for me
'Cause I ain't the love you thought I'd be
I've got a hundred more like you, so don't be blue
I'll have a thousand 'fore I'm through

Now there you go you've cried again
Now there you go you've cried again
But then some day when your poor heart is on the mend
I just might pass this way again

That's what you get for lovin' me
That's what you get for lovin' me
Everything you had is gone, as you can see
That's what you get for lovin' me
That's what you get for lovin' me

[ July 11, 2006, 05:47: Message edited by: Jesse -Joe ]

[BILLW]

JJ,

It is what it is - a great song - let them say what they will, LOL.

Bill :)

[Jesse Joe]

I agree BILLW. Are you at the pool today? It sure is warm down here... :rolleyes: :)

[ July 08, 2006, 10:43: Message edited by: Jesse -Joe ]

[charlene]

Nope - don't think it is.

A person stating who he is, what he believes, how he feels about love, intimacy, relationships and is up front about all of it is honest.
A most welcome trait.
From that honesty the other person can decide what relationship, if any will occur with full knowledge of who they're dealing with.


I wonder what would have been said had it been a woman singing those words....

;)

[Shutup and Deal, I'm Losin']

It is a chauvinistic song, though. He admits it in the songbook. Of course, it could be about the end of a bad relationship, and he's telling her to get the h*ll on.

[Jesse Joe]

Could have only been answered, by the true Lightfoot fan that you are Charlene... Very Good.


This might be of some interest to someone who never saw an article I read on Macleans Magazine, May 1, 1978.

"Lightfoot can boast a sprawling mansion in Toronto's Rosedale, a Cadillac convertible, membership in the pricey Cambridge Club, two sailboats (the 35-foot Sundown and the 45-foot Golden Goose), even-much less welcome- the distinction of one of the highest settlements in Canadian history for his 1973 divorce ($150,000 cash and $4,500 a month for his ex-wife Brita)."

And from the book, 'If You Could Read His Mind'. After the verdict, his ex-wifes lawyer walking away, turns to Mr. Lightfoot and says; " That's what you get for lovin Me"... :) :eek:

[ July 08, 2006, 16:24: Message edited by: Jesse -Joe ]

[TheWatchman]

Gord himself said it was chauvinistic. Nothing wrong with that. Everybody at one time or another has felt that way towards the opposite sex.

[BILLW]

Originally posted by Jesse -Joe:
I agree BiLLW. Are you at the pool today? It sure is warm down here... :rolleyes: :) Today I'm covering a shift for someone on vacation. 12 hours in the data center/computer room. But I was in the pool last night and I intend to swim tonight and after church on Sunday. Thanks for asking !

http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d148/BILLW1/th_ec2ff9ec.jpg (http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d148/BILLW1/ec2ff9ec.jpg)


Bill :)

[ July 08, 2006, 08:37: Message edited by: BILLW ]

[DJ in MJ]

Hey Bill, that's my job too (more or less)! I've been in and out of that club for the past 17 years. How long have you been at it?

Oh, and as far as the song goes, I agree that it's more honest and upfront than anything else. It's also fun to listen to the coupling of "Did She Mention My Name", which has more of a regetful twist. I love the opposite emotions the two songs conjure up.

[BILLW]

Originally posted by David (djb):
Hey Bill, that's my job too (more or less)! I've been in and out of that club for the past 17 years. How long have you been at it? Small world. I started in "operations" in 1978 and worked my way up to the title of Chief (title has since been discontinued) in the IT dept. of the Federal Reserve Bank Of New York. When I took an early retirement in 1990 I had 40 people working for me. ER only lasted 3 years, LOL. After my one & only child was born I needed more cash flow so I went back to it after any number of different jobs. I've been in IT at Perdue Farms since 1998. So I guess the total time is about 20 years now - give or take, LOL.

Bill :)

[charlene]

While Mr. Lightfoot himself may have thought his song chauvinistic I answered the question as asked. ("Do you think the Gordon Lightfoot song,"For Lovin Me," is chauvinistic?")

I did not and do not think it is. If chauvinism means being honest about how you will treat someone, good or bad, male or female, then perhaps it is.
I doubt it tho.

[RM]

Charlene,

I tend to disagree with your assumption that the lyrics imply that the person is being forthright about their intentions. I hear just the opposite. I always thought it was presented in an after-the-fact
fashion. Someone is "used" and then abandoned, with no remorse on the part of the one leaving.

RMD

[Jesse Joe]

Bob Dylan once said, "For Lovin Me, I just wish I had written that song." :eek:

From the Gordon Lightfoot songbook:
For Lovin' Me.

In later years I realized that was the most chauvinistic song ever written, but never-the lest Peter Yarrow (of Peter, Paul & Mary) saw something in it, a tongue-in-cheek sort of approach to the situation.


Fortunately for me, it became a big hit. I am happy also to have been a part of their entourage for a short while.

It was their recording, along with Ian & Sylvia's help, that opened some doors in New York city that got me where I needed to be.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>><<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< <<<<<<<<<<


That's what the writer of this beautiful song's opinion is. :rolleyes:


Now the question is, Do {YOU} think the song For Lovin' Me is chauvinistic? Every one is entitled to there opinion.


Come on guys, for Lightfoot's sake! :) :D

[ July 08, 2006, 10:51: Message edited by: Jesse -Joe ]

[RM]

Jesse-Joe,

Just in case my previous post was not clear.... Yes, I think it is Chauvinistic.

RMD

[Jesse Joe]

That's good my man, that's your opinion, and it was clear. :)

[RM]

Jesse-Joe,

Yes, you were wrong. There was no argument brewing. I was simply stating that I hear the song as being in the past tense, rather than a warning to others that might appear in the future.

RMD

[GJA]

Chauvinistic? You bet. But I would have thought it worthwhile just to be with him, say in the mid seventies…

[GJA]

Chauvinistic? You bet. But I would have thought it worthwhile just to be with him, say in the mid seventies…

[Jesse Joe]

Same thought as me Gloria. Gordon Lightfoot his music, and his life in general appeared more, way more interesting in the 70's.

Dont know what I would give, to have been with him on his drinking days. The partys that went on, every other night, as he told his good friend, Murray McLauchlan .

"Playing between 16,000 to 18,000 people at a time, and were selling out."

He is cool today, but what a cool cat in those days. As I have many a concert, and interviews, of him while him not being totaly sober. :)

[Jesse Joe]

Same thought as me Gloria. Gordon Lightfoot his music, and his life in general appeared more, way more interesting in the 70's.

Dont know what I would give, to have been with him on his drinking days. The partys that went on, every other night, as he told his good friend, Murray McLauchlan .

"Playing between 16,000 to 18,000 people at a time, and were selling out."

He is cool today, but what a cool cat in those days. As I have many a concert, and interviews, of him while him not being totaly sober. :)

[Borderstone]

Actually,I think the most chauvanistic song ever written had to be Bobby Sherman's,"Little Woman".

Most Chauv. line in the song;Quote:"Little Woman,leave your world behind and come into mine". :eek:

In other words,give up everything about herself and rest all of her hopes dreams,desires on a relationship with him. :rolleyes:

He's the "man" after all. :rolleyes: Ugh!

As for Gordon,his song is chavanistic,no doubt,but a lot of songwriters back then were.

In most songs,when a love and/or relationship ends(no matter what the reason) it's always "her" fault.

She'll always be the sorry one and he'll be perfectly fine and find another (or more) almost immedietly. tongue.gif

Glad those kind of lyrics are gone! :)

[Jesse Joe]

Gordon Lightfoot's "Go MY Way", from, 'Summer Side Of Life.'


"Go my way, it's the only way to go."

[Jesse Joe]

Gordon Lightfoot's "Go MY Way", from, 'Summer Side Of Life.'


"Go my way, it's the only way to go."

[Sydney Steve]

Well I don't in the sense I understand the word. In fact I went scurrying for the dictionary to confirm my understanding of it. The dictionaries I looked at supported the view it is not chauvinistic.
The meaning that appears to be meant to apply are these from a few different online sources includes :

* Prejudiced belief in the superiority of one's own gender, group, or kind:

* activity indicative of belief in the superiority of men over women

* undue partiality or attachment to a group or place to which one belongs or has belonged

* an attitude of superiority toward members of the opposite sex; also : behavior expressive of such an attitude

Just because Gord stated it was chauvinistic merely shows he is not truly aware of what chauvinism is. He's an entertainer not a linguist.
Nothing in it conveys a view of superiority of any group over another and not of men over women .

The song does not exactly display the nicest of sentiments but it conveys a sort of "I am not totally to blame here -you picked me" type sentiment...(Some would argue a cop-out and a rather petulant, self centred view), but even that would depend on whether said gal had been made aware at the outset of the singers failings.

But then there is a different way to look at it too which may be hinted at in this verse:
So don't you shed a tear for me
B'cause I ain't the love you thought I'd be
I got a hundred more like you
So don't be blue
I'll have a thousand 'fore I'm through
There is a hint here that the singer is deliberately being an A grade mongrel to help make the healing easier for the girl after he is gone. It is his method of making parting easier because he feels it will be easier on her to part with someone who has shown himself as a self centred philandering egomaniac, than it would be if he parted with her feeling she had really lost something/someone of value…. A sort of “reverse psychology gift” to her if you will.. Just a thought…

When all said and done though it is not an autobiographical song - rather an observation of a slice of life & people and should not be confused as it being some sort of reflection of Gord's personal views or life...

PS If we are talking chauvinism I would say the lyrics from 14 Karat Gold is a better example...The whole tenure of the song treats the woman as a valuable possession - "She's more than money ,Shes 14 Karat Gold.." (Which might I add is not a very precious grade of gold!) lol...
But hey its just a song ..I recall singing "I am Woman" heartily...still do (on the quiet) if the truth be told...but anatomically/psychologically it may not be quite accurate...

*Stevo's entry in the overly verbose,tedious and lengthy post competition* which has a number of worthy and willing participants I note... ;)

[RM]

Sidney Steve,

Congratulations ! You have won the contest. I could not decipher an answer from your post. So....

In your veiw is the song Chauvinistic or not ?

RMD

[Sydney Steve]

Ummm.... no...

<*In the light of this wishes he entered in the slightly more prestigious category of "Most unintelligible post" * >

[RM]

Sidney Steve,

I meant no offense. Congratulations again !

RMD

[rickv]

Chauvinistic? Maybe, but the song isn't gender specific is it?

[mercedes]

Though I’m normally reluctant to participate in discussions concerning the intent behind lyrics I did not write, I do know this song well, if only having listened to it so often in younger days.

It has never come across to me as chauvinistic … but if one were to draw that conclusion and assume that the emotions were tied to attitudes from men TO women, I can appreciate the sentiment … i.e. “There you go, you cried again” … it is hard to imagine how that line (alone) sounds in the least bit convincing if it was directed toward a male audience.

I hasten to add by a female .... then again and these days …..

I will never think of the lyrics as anything other than “protected arrogance” … something one might say, write or think …. for a defence against a perceived personal attack that might never take place.

Therein lies my dislike of reading liner notes …. don’t break your silence, don’t betray my beliefs or understanding of what emotions played part in either your head whilst composing the song, or in mine when I felt compelled to purchase it .....

Just tell me if I ask you.

Mike :)

[ July 09, 2006, 11:18: Message edited by: Mike Dixon ]

[geodeticman]

Sydney Steve - LOL you are in no danger of winning the dubious award of "overly verbose, tedious, and lengthy" posts ! I believe I am at least a strong contender in that, a lot in this one, but less in general lately than historically !

For what its worth, despite my posts growing somewhat more succinct here and there.... I've had nothing but very kind notes sent regarding my longer posts.

Exceptions to that in open forum were rare; the few complaints I had while especially re-learning my typing reflected far worse of the sender with the thread participants, generally speaking. I enjoyed your "longer post" ! LOL your self-deprecating humour is not lost...

Another tack historically, for what its worth on the meaning of chauvinistic, I vaguely recalled from school the source being a man named Chauvin, whom I anticipated would have been a big womanizer when I looked it up. Quite the opposite..hoowee to wit

-------------------------------------------------
following verbatim from Wikipedia: [historical]
-------------------------------------------------
Nicolas Chauvin
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Jump to: navigation, search
Nicolas Chauvin (possibly b. Rochefort, France, c. 1790) was a semi-mythical soldier and patriot who served in the First Army of the French Republic and subsequently in La Grande Armee of Napoleon Bonaparte. His name is the origin of the term chauvinism.
----------------------------------end Wikipedia

It [Wikipedia] goes on to explain that the term came to be used as a person of excessive nationalism or mis-placed patriotism. He also was a fervent, sycophantic follower who idolized Napolean.

So, the word's historical definition [denotation] was not one of disdain and user/abuser of women per se ,but a term later attributed to political excess and generally considered pejorative from the start, it would appear.

However, its current [connotation] seems to be highly variable gauging from all the above responses ! LOL :) Clearly though its usage has undergone spontaneous mutagenesis to reflect a false sense of male superiority as I read it.

My opinion JJ: Given that in so much modern pop music you can't even distinguish the lyrics enought to begin debating the merit, I applaud GL's lyrics being intelligable, if not ALWAYS admirable (who is ?). Yes, I think [the lyrics] are chauvinistic, not Gord.

I'd simply point out to augment the songbook comment by GL a mention he made of it in concert I attended in Denver, almost apologetically to the audience, while obviously amused by the over-examination of what could be an entirely fictitious scenario [i.e. are we to assume all songs are about Lightfoot when not explicity so ?] :

- paraphrasing "this was in my early days and is clearly chauvinistic in nature, but was simply [about] a temporary less-than-admirable fleeting thought that became a [good] song".

He added "I do NOT feel this way about women, perhaps I did a few times back then, but this song is NOT based on an experience of mine, but I s'pose could 'a been [self-deprecating grin and utterings while audience laughed].

[again, to best of my memory] he continued "BUT... I like to play it now with the contrasting more admirable take I s'pose of "Did She Mention My Name" following [explaining then how how a young man full of pi** and vinegar in the 1st song could change over time to the more gentlemanly approach toward woman in the 2nd song, and hence how he liked to tempor the excesses of the 1st with the 2nd in the medley].

So, while apparently not autobiographical from those comments alone at that concert, he still felt it of value to make clear his own evolution of growing respect for women over the years by forming the medley. But, he was not overly concerned about it..as in "its just a SONG" ...

I think as fans of his, we are typically accustomed to his songs being more than just enjoyable little ditties you can whistle, but rather genuine works of art and poetry. Once in awhile, however, it seems he is posessed of writing a song that is in fact the former.[why not?].. and fun to him he said, which is cool with me....

And Jessie-Joe - I think Gloria meant a slightly different way regarding mid-70'S GL than you did when you agreed somewhat. - Gloria: meant tastefully in the best of ways, and Jessie: all in good fun ;)

So Sydney, I have relieved you I think of the burden in this thread anyway of the longest post distinction you had the good nature to mention ...but my goal was not that [to best you]at all...LOL. Rather, to communicate what I thought of the subject at hand...and in neat little paragraphs !

Rickv - good point, I don't recall it being gender specific.
geo Steve

[ July 09, 2006, 06:44: Message edited by: geodeticman ]

[geodeticman]

Mike - you make a good point - your comment about it being "protected arrogance" best reflects what I heard and recall for the most part what Gord said in that concert.

GL also mentioned it was meant as a form of "false bravado or machismo" - and... that he meant it to be a story of the man trying to protect his own feelings, embarrassed by himself for really BEING attached to her and saying half-heartedly "I don't really care anyway, you shouldn't either.. [e.g. yeah that's it that's the ticket].." . I think you pegged it in that aspect at least.
- geo Steve

[Jesse Joe]

GeoSteve, from what you have contributed to this post. From a sweet love in, "Did She Mention My Name," to the (chauvinistic or not} of ,"For Lovin Me." I think most of us would agree, that he sure can write them...A Poet Genius, no matter what is the subject of the song. He is the best...JJ. :)

[geodeticman]

JessieJoe - thanks you for the [compliment?]!

You sure are right there, friend - on GL being able to write them, no matter the take on any one given song at any one time.

He is IMHO a Poet Laureate in his own right, and a magical musician on top of the deal.

We so often say these things that seem best understood and shared by die-hard fans, that they functionally transcend opinion on our common love of the man's music, that they approach becoming truisms- generally accepted by fans as a "given" .

But then, if we agreed on everything, there would be nothing to write about in this forum, for which I am greatful.

I feel that in this world that all too often leans too much towards blase, and tends to engender a laissez-fairre mentality, that GL's music stands out as moments of grace, dignity, and beauty.

For what may be a minute - on the radio, or CD in the car, for an hour at home by the fire with your wife or S.O. at your side, or for that rare 2+ hours in concert we count the days to it seems, my wife and I get something increasingly special when we listen.

See, since I was a teenager, I originally idolized Gordon Lightfoot, wanted to be just like him, you know how teens think. Over time, as I grew up, I learned he was... human, with frailties, imperfections, challenges, troubles, bills to pay, kids to teach life too before we've got it figured out yet, much the same as we learn over time our parents are human too.

And yet there remains something special, as I said above...- those few minutes, maybe an hour or two, of that special feeling Gord gives us to transcend the mundane and often parochial day-to-day trappings "mister hoot-n-holler, gotta make a dollar"...

As Gord put even this best, perhaps unknowingly in its full extent - in the song "Is There Anyone Home", the following:(if memory serves)- "don't be ashamed if you get a warmth in your heart... you got that feelin' in your soul" - That elusive but very real "Lightfoot feeling" .

Thanks - geo Steve

[Jesse Joe]

Very very well written, Geo Steve. Myself I idolized him, still do today, but its like you perfectly stated, he is human, with imperfections, challenges , bills to pay, etc. We are all humans, fighting the same battles.

It's John Mellencamp that said it best, in an interview in the 80's. He said "Ive been real poor, and now I have a little bit of money. But Money is not gone a solve your problems, Pays you phone bill. But whichever problems you have are with in your head and you heart, and money is not gone a solve that."

You write, he is {IHMO?} a Poet Laureat in his own right, A magical musician. The later one I had never heard before. Well put my friend, can I steal it from you? I will use it from now on. A Magical Musician... I love it...Jesse. :) :rolleyes: ;)

[RM]

Jesse-Joe,

Your sentiments jarred this memory of an interview with John Hartford about the writing of "Gentle on My Mind". The interviewer notes that Hartford could retire and live comfortably with the proceeds from that song alone. To which Hartford replied, "Financially, yes. But not mentally or spiritually".

RMD

[Jesse Joe]

Exactly RMD! Same as the Mellencamp interview, is what your telling me here right? Money pays the bills, but mentally or spiritualy as you say,All the money in the world ain't gone a solve those problems.

Money is a very big necessity, but there are people with lots of money that end up killing themselves. Mind you also many poor people end up the same way. Is this what you meant RMD?...Jesse. :)

[ July 10, 2006, 07:26: Message edited by: Jesse -Joe ]

[Borderstone]

The song "needs" to be gender specific? :confused:

Are you implying Gordon isn't talking about a woman??! :eek: I think it's pretty safe to say he is and yes it is a chauvanistic thing (whether you are a man or a woman) to imply that you'll overcome a break-up better than they will.

Not to mention telling that person,"I've got a 100 more like you".

Or..."Everything you had is gone,as you can see" ...
and,"Someday when your poor heart is on the mend,I just might pass this way again".

In other words,I'll continue to make you miserable?! It's usually guys that do things like that,women do to,but it's usually the male.

These are pretty pathetic things for anyone to say to another,after sharing a close relationship.
Talk about doing anything to feel superior! :rolleyes:

[ July 09, 2006, 15:47: Message edited by: Borderstone ]

[RM]

Jesse-Joe,

About people killing themselves ?...no.

Just kidding. I was just offering an affirmation of the thoughts that were expressed in the Mellencamp interview. The Hartford interview has just stayed in my memory. As the Beatles said "Can't Buy Me Love".

RMD

[rickv]

Originally posted by Borderstone:
The song "needs" to be gender specific? I mean the lyrics aren't gender specific. A female could sing the song and the meaning would remain the same.

[Jesse Joe]

Borderstone, Gordon is definitly talking about a woman for sure. I was just answering a point that Geo Steve had said, about Lightfoot being like the rest of us, having bills to pay, etc . Go up a few posts and read what he's typed.

RMD, yes that's exactly what I was trying to find out from you. Bottom line is that famous Beatles song, "Can't Buy Me Love." The suicide thing , I took it a litle further. Sorry for that...Jesse.

[rickv]

I didn't mean to imply he's talking about a man! I'm merely saying the song isn't an attack on the female gender. In that sense it is not chauvinistic. You could make the case that it's glorifying promiscuity!

[Janice]

I believe as RMD does that the song is with regard to a past relationship, not the present or future. I also tend to go more with idea that the narrator is a bit cocky, even arrogant, but not necessarily chauvinistic. (whether this cockiness is overcompensation for self-doubt, as arrogance sometimes can be, is a-whole-nother can of worms) OK, still not a flattering trait, but there is a difference. Notice I used the term "narrator" - that's because I don't believe that every song that Lightfoot has written or will write is autobiographical. There are times when songwriters write songs that have nothing to do with themselves, their loved ones, or anyone they know - sometimes they just write a song.

[Shutup and Deal, I'm Losin']

Chauvinism to a point isn't that bad. Getting over a breakup is one thing, but when it comes to thinking you can do women like that any time you want to, THEN it's out of hand. ;)

[LSH]

It has always come across as a self protective type attitude to me...I'll hurt you before you can hurt me...and the further I can drive you away, the less chance there is that you will hurt me...

[RM]

Janice,

Your use of the word "arrogant" was interesting.

This has been a very fascinating exercise. I will never hear the song as I did before. I think that's a good thing.

RMD

[geodeticman]

Janice -

I touched on the same idea you had in the third to last paragraph in the first longer post of mine higher up. I think we are the same wavelength here. I've always thought GL does at times just right songs that are (to borrow my words up higher) enjoyable little ditties to whistle [ versus autobiograhpical songs as you said] - I agree and believe he does both

- geo Steve

[geodeticman]

Jessie-Joe

Thank you. Very kind words.

geo Steve

[Jesse Joe]

Very much welcome, GeoSteve, when they are deserving there's no need for thank yousss...Jesse.

[RM]

Janice,

Revisiting your post, and the thoughts expressed by Geo Steve, I just wanted to add this. Having dabbled in songwriting, I can certainly vouch for the fact that one's songs may be construed as autobiographical. As Kris Kristofferson once penned, "partly truth, and partly fiction". Which is which ?
Only I know, and I'm not talking.

RMD

[Janice]

I never said nor meant to imply that songs are never autobiographical, just that they don't always have to be and in some cases, they are not. No doubt there is some real life influence in most songs - after all, I've been told it is best to write about what you know, but what do I know about writing :)

I love that Kristofferson song, "...He's a walking contradiction, partly truth and partly fiction..." great song

[BILLW]

Originally posted by MistyMoppens:

I've always thought the song smacked of "sour grapes" with the lines, "I've got a hundred more like you. I'll have a thousand before I'm through."

Fascinating comments, everyone! [/QB]It's all in the ear of the listener it seems because I have always heard the same line as simple arithmetic. As they say "by the numbers".

Bill :)

[Jennifer]

I don't think chauvinistic would be the right word; perhaps insensitive, arrogant would be more fitting. But I love this song, and the way he sings this is a hoot. Its impossible to find anything offensive about it especially if you juxtapose it to some of the *truly* chauvinistic music that's around today!

[Jesse Joe]

Right on Jennifer, your a smart woman, your gone a do good here...Jesse. :)

[Jennifer]

Why, thank you... (grin)

[marc in maine]

This is a fun song because of it's melody and shocking honesty.

[brink-]

Yeah! Marc is back. You are safe now, I finished my english course. lol

[marc in maine]

Thanks, Brink. Is the Watchman gone?

[DJ in MJ]

He was gone, but seems to pop in occasionally.

[DJ in MJ]

Brought back this old topic. Why, you ask? When I woke up this afternoon, after my daily slumber from a long nightshift, I put on one of the early Best Of CDs. Of course I got to hear not only "For Lovin' Me", but also "I'm Not Sayin' ". These two songs fit together very well theme-wise, and it's not just the apostrophe replacing the missing G in each title. :)

It was quite a pleasant experience too. Waking up at 4 in the afternoon, in a flat in the middle of Stockholm, and listening to some cheeky shenanigans over that first steaming cup of coffee. A great way to start the day! :D

[Jesse Joe]

Are you saying your from Sweden, David(djb)? If so ever see ABBA? They were my fav group of the 80's...Jesse. :)

[Jesse Joe]

Are you saying your from Sweden, David(djb)? If so ever see ABBA? They were my fav group of the 80's...Jesse. :)

[DJ in MJ]

No, GL and I share the same birthplace (Orillia). He's just a bit more famous than me, that's all. :D

I have permanent residence status to live and work in Sweden since '99, but I am still, and always will be, a Canadiac citizen.

[Jesse Joe]

All right, great birthplace indeed. Thanks for the info...Jesse :)

[My Name is Ann]

I'm happy to see this thread revived.

Speaking as a "child of the sixties/seventies" who was/is very much into the woman's movement, I can honestly say that I've never been offended by this song.

I hear it as a song of someone who assumes a certain "self protective" arrogance. Someone who loves so deeply, has been hurt and puts on a defensive/offensive posture or shell to shield himself from more hurt.

I don't take his lyrics literally - I believe they leave us all with a lot of latitude to take away from them what we wish.

I also like the view that was expressed earlier in this thread that he may be making himself out to be a worse cad than he is in order to make it easier for the other person in the relationship to just get on with their life instead of pining over him.

[DJ in MJ]

Originally posted by My Name is Ann:
I don't take his lyrics literally - I believe they leave us all with a lot of latitude to take away from them what we wish. All excellent points, Ann. Relationships are far too intertwined to ever be able to see it from one perspective or one reason.

We also have to remember that attitudes are a sign of the times. So when we hear or see something from 30-40 years ago, we have to try and recall what it was like back then, rather than solely place today's values on the subject matter. It makes for interesting reflections, as we are constantly growing both as a society and as individuals.

[marc in maine]

The song is meant to be amusing. It rings true and truth can be very funny. I'm not sayin' (no pun intended) it's "very funny", but that it's VERY amusing (to me). Enjoy it!

[My Name is Ann]

Originally posted by marc in maine:
The song is meant to be amusing. It rings true and truth can be very funny. I'm not sayin' (no pun intended) it's "very funny", but that it's VERY amusing (to me). Enjoy it! I agree, Marc.
I just listened to it again and realized that each time I hear it I get a silly grin on my face. I think it's the combination of the upbeat melody and the outrageous lyrics that just makes me smile. :D ;)

[Barry Shanley]

That's it Ann. His success is the melody that is chosen for his lyrics, or is it the other way around? Could this be a topic for a new thread or has it already been covered?

[marc in maine]

That's it Ann. His success is the melody that is chosen for his lyrics, or is it the other way around? Could this be a topic for a new thread or has it already been covered?

[Wesley]

I probably need to look up that word in the dictionary since chauvinistic a reletivly new word to me but I've heard of similar songs where the guy is a rambler and it's time for him to move on.

[Affair on Touhy Ave.]

I probably need to look up that word in the dictionary since chauvinistic a reletivly new word to me but I've heard of similar songs where the guy is a rambler and it's time for him to move on.

[DJ in MJ]

I don't usually take music or other forms of entertainment "seriously" either. The reason, of course, is that it is just that - entertainment. In fact, I get the silly grin when I listen to those two GL songs too. It's fun to be a bit of a cad sometimes, even if it's just in my imagination. :D

[Cathy]

I think it's chauvinistic, but maybe it was just a sign of the times that it was written in. I think society, as a whole, was generally more chauvinistic in the mid '60s. The women's lib movement was just getting off the ground. Had the song been written in the mid '70's, it probably wouldn't have gotten much airplay. People were more 'aware' that women had taken a big step in becoming men's equals.
I don't think Gord should be a bit ashamed of the song. It's like an old photo... just a snapshot of an era.

[Jesse Joe]

Chauvinistic or not, I like it. Wnen Gords divorce was finalize, with first wife Brita. Her Lawyer turned to Gord in court and said "That's what you get for lovin me."

I imagine Gord must have been a little mad. At that time, it was considered to be the highest cash settlement, in Canadian Divorce history... MaCleans Magazine May, 1978...Jesse. :)

[Jesse Joe]

Chauvinistic or not, I like it. Wnen Gords divorce was finalize, with first wife Brita. Her Lawyer turned to Gord in court and said "That's what you get for lovin me."

I imagine Gord must have been a little mad. At that time, it was considered to be the highest cash settlement, in Canadian Divorce history... MaCleans Magazine May, 1978...Jesse. :)

[AZroute74]

It's chauvanistic, but then so are any number of songs nowadays. Usually in the reverse--somehow it's OK to bash men. Shania Twain's "Any Man of Mine" comes into my mind, but turn it around to where a man is saying, "Any woman of mine better do this and do that," especially when it's the dehumanizing groveling Twain sings about, and watch women's groups pounce.

I've got a hundred more like you
So don't be blue
I'll have a thousand 'fore I'm through

Perfect. I love it. I applied it to an ex husband who left me, and whose sister considers me a slut for no discernable reason, so when he left me he thought it wouldn't hurt me and he'd be "replaced" within a week. I threw that at him. I wanted to throw other things at him too, like cast iron skillets and chef's knives, but I decided not to.

[Tom]

Do you think the Gordon Lightfoot song,"For Lovin Me," is chauvinistic? It may be chauvinistic, but it's not misogynist.

Elvis Presley recorded a nice version of that song in 1973 for the "FOOL" album.

[AZroute74]

Waylon Jennings did it too.

And apparently Lightfoot returned the favor during the opening ceremonies of the 1988 Winter Olymics in Calgary, when he sang "Four Strong Winds," which Jennings wrote.

[Jesse Joe]

I always thought Ian Tyson wrote, "Four Strong Winds."

Ian & Gord did do it at, the Opening Ceremonies, in 1988 in Calgary, along with Lightfoots, "Alberta Bound." :)

[ September 04, 2006, 08:36: Message edited by: Jesse -Joe ]

[charlene]

Tyson wrote Four Strong Winds:

http://www.thecanadianencyclopedia.com/index.cfm?PgNm=TCE&Params=U1ARTU0001268

[AZroute74]

Oops. Then the information I read on my Waylon Jennings collection was incorrect. That's where I got it.

Blush.

Back to add: Yes, after double checking myself, I was wrong about who wrote Four Strong Winds. Jennings was a very early recorder of the song, Bobby Bare heard his version and then recorded his own cut, but Jennings' version sort of put him on the map....

But the liner notes in my Waylon Jennings anthology did say something about Bare "covering Waylon Jennings's song 'Four Strong Winds,'" which would give the impression that Jennings wrote it. "Four Strong Winds" itself is not on my anthology, so I could not tell from the liner notes who exactly did. I hope it's understandable why I made the mistake.

[ September 09, 2006, 22:43: Message edited by: AZroute74 ]

[Jesse Joe]

Hi AZroute74, your mistake is often done by many people, because that song was done by so many artists. Many folks think it belongs to Neil Young. But Ian Tyson is the mind behind it...~Jesse~ :)

It is a good one. :) ;)

[MistyMoppens]

No. But it comes off more of soar grapes to me because it's so cocky, self righteous and a tad bit mean. It's the attitude of an immature guy - I thought he'd grow out of it. No big deal. The actual tune is great, though.

[Affair on Touhy Ave.]

http://www.colorradio.com/Pictures/fleetwoods/for_lovin_me.gif


Do you think the Gordon Lightfoot song,"For Lovin Me," is chauvinistic? :(


In the 60's, 'The Women's Right' movement, gaved him "heck" about that song. He told an interviewer, that he still performs it today on occasion. He said, "It's a good one, it depends on how you look at it"... :)


For Lovin' Me, ©1966 by Gordon Lightfoot

That's what you get for lovin' me
That's what you get for lovin' me
Everything you had is gone, as you can see
That's what you get for lovin' me

I ain't the kind to hang around
With any new love that I've found
'Cause movin is my stock 'n trade, I'm moving on
I won't think of you when I'm gone

So don't you shed a tear for me
'Cause I ain't the love you thought I'd be
I've got a hundred more like you, so don't be blue
I'll have a thousand 'fore I'm through

Now there you go you've cried again
Now there you go you've cried again
But then some day when your poor heart is on the mend
I just might pass this way again

That's what you get for lovin' me
That's what you get for lovin' me
Everything you had is gone, as you can see
That's what you get for lovin' me
That's what you get for lovin' me

[ July 11, 2006, 05:47: Message edited by: Jesse -Joe ]


I don't see how it could be.

Obviously the guy in the song is being a jerk but it's also one of those song about a rambler who moves around, stays with a woman for a while and leaves and who knows how many such songs have been written though the years.

[Mike Dixon]

No way is it chauvinistic. It's brilliant in its message.

[Affair on Touhy Ave.]

There've been many other songs that sound like For Lovin Me where man in the song is a rambler, stays with a woman for a while and them move on.


Here's some cases.

Rambin Gamblin Bob Segar.

Ramblin Man Allman Brothers.

Heard It In A Love Song/Take The Highway both by The Marshall Tucker Band.


I'm sure there's more and did any women's group go after them?


Now here's 2 examples that would be chauvinistic.


I Got A Woman-Ray Charles

one verse goes like.

"Never running in the streets and leaving me alone, she knows that a woman's place ins right there down in the home."


It's a Man's World-James Brown.


Think those sound more like it.

[Kelly Davis]

I had to look through the posts to make sure I had not responded to this before.

I think it is kind of chauvinistic. There are worse things.

Kind of adds to his charm - sorry if this offends, ladies.

I think he's 'grown up a bit' since he wrote this one.

[MistyMoppens]

I think he's 'grown up a bit' since he wrote this one.

Kelly, so do I!

[paskatefan]

I had to look through the posts to make sure I had not responded to this before.

I think it is kind of chauvinistic. There are worse things.

Kind of adds to his charm - sorry if this offends, ladies.

I think he's 'grown up a bit' since he wrote this one.


That's my take on this song & his attitude towards it today, too!



Gail

[Affair on Touhy Ave.]

Would you think of it any different back then?

[paskatefan]

^ Is your question directed to me or just in general?

Gail

[Martyn Miles]

Gosh, this subject really has ‘got people going’ in a big way.
It’s brought out some stories I’d rather not know about...

[Affair on Touhy Ave.]

^ Is your question directed to me or just in general?

Gail


What does it sound like and do you have a problem that I'm even asking?

[paskatefan]

^ No, not @ all! :biggrin:



Perhaps he didn't think it was chauvinistic @ the time that he wrote it, but times have certainly changed. There's no way he would write a song like that now, or consider singing it in these times.



Gail

[Affair on Touhy Ave.]

I don't see why he wouldn't now or what a song like that would be less acceptable.

[charlene]

He speaks of it in the documentary that he (and many men) back then didn't even know what chauvinistic meant. It was how things were. He learned how it was hurtful to those he loved and stopped singing it. When we know better we do better seems to be his philosophy, as it is mine..

^ No, not @ all! :biggrin:



Perhaps he didn't think it was chauvinistic @ the time that he wrote it, but times have certainly changed. There's no way he would write a song like that now, or consider singing it in these times.



Gail

[Affair on Touhy Ave.]

I see.

I just don't see how a song like that could have been looked upon as negative now and not back then especially for the other examples of similar songs about rambling on or the fact that there are probably a lot of stuff that's been put out years later or even to this very day that are the same way.

[charlene]

back in the day that's how men were when it came to women be it in their personal relationships or work relationships.. and especially in a male driven career...the women's lib movement began because of it..men felt that they had the right to be boorish and derogatory with women that was just part of the lessons they learned going back many generations. they never considered it chauvinism because they felt it was just how things were... it was not in their conscious thinking to reflect that they were ''chauvinistic''.. and it carried into years to come and in some ways it still exists...

[Mike Dixon]

... and many would say it's gone full circle

[Rob1956]

I think the song is just a snapshot in time of a guy with a chip on his shoulder. I suspect Meredith got a hold of her father and filled his head with notions.

[Affair on Touhy Ave.]

What I wonder is a song like that or some of the others about loving a woman for a short time and moving on any different that such as in the later when rock artists were writing songs are drug use or other immoral stuff whether from that era or later.

Don't listen to too much newer music but I've heard some of Kacey Musgraves stuff and much of what she writes is a bit rebellious and I've read or heard some traditional country music fans find her music off beat.

Though one of Johnny Cash's songs "Ring Of Fire" is somewhat offbeat as well and while not chauvinistic all I mentioned are probably negative in some way or another and For Lovin Me is no more worse.