PDA

View Full Version : My (Your) Favorite Couplet from Gord


wendylangley
05-01-2005, 03:18 AM
For me, the couplet that just tickles me the most is from Old Dan's Records:

"We're all here. We've all got dates.
We'll dance all night to the 78s"

Genius. What strikes you?

The Rez

The Rez
05-01-2005, 03:18 AM
For me, the couplet that just tickles me the most is from Old Dan's Records:

"We're all here. We've all got dates.
We'll dance all night to the 78s"

Genius. What strikes you?

The Rez

TheWatchman
05-01-2005, 11:52 AM
"My mother said with the life that I led I'd be broke. Holy smoke" From Welcome To Try

nelsonaddison
05-01-2005, 01:42 PM
"He shouts across the ocean to the shore
Till he can shout no more" from Don Quixote

Patti
05-01-2005, 01:42 PM
"He shouts across the ocean to the shore
Till he can shout no more" from Don Quixote

LSH
05-01-2005, 02:29 PM
"I'd like to take things one at a time
Forget about reason--forget about rhyme"
Drink Your Glasses Empty

closetcanadian
05-01-2005, 03:15 PM
"I don't want to own the key - to some ghostly mansion, where souls are set free."
On the High Seas

bjb
05-01-2005, 03:28 PM
Yesterday is gone, yesterday’s alright
Yesterday belongs in my dreams at night

Yesterday is swell, yesterday is great
Yesterday is strong, remembering can wait
-- Painter Passing Through

Reminds me to live in the moment...

[ May 06, 2005, 10:16: Message edited by: bjb ]

Sentimental
05-01-2005, 05:46 PM
"The answer's in the forest carved upon a tree. 'John loves Mary'. Does anyone love me?"

from Sit Down Young Stranger.

Wesley
05-01-2005, 11:57 PM
Affair on 8th Ave. the part where he sings she brushed it down, referring to her hair, when i was small i though he meant she brushed her hair and it fell down to the ground.

Affair on Touhy Ave.
05-01-2005, 11:57 PM
Affair on 8th Ave. the part where he sings she brushed it down, referring to her hair, when i was small i though he meant she brushed her hair and it fell down to the ground.

Sydney Steve
05-02-2005, 06:03 AM
"The House You Live In" has a poignant couplet . I think it goes something like:

" Poison your wife, and bash all your children
Don't forget all their nasty traits ..."

Just joking Corfiders. Must cut down on my AC/DC quotient - its killing off my feel for the "love stuff"!
With "Star Wars" looming I must remember "Never underestimate the power of the dark Side of the Force ".
More seriously this is a tough question and requires serious thought...( back to you with a real one later).
The cause? Blatant jealousy has turned me. (Well its the "blame generation" after all !)
I read of these gigs many of you are attending , the set lists and how wonderful they are. Another few reviews and set lists and I'll be biting the heads off chickens too!

SilverHeels
05-02-2005, 06:51 AM
One of my faves ..

'If there's a friend who needs me,
I'll do my best to help somehow'.

And I try to live those words in my own life.
The genius of Lightfoot!

Don Quixote
05-02-2005, 08:02 AM
Good topic, Rez. Could I also suggest that people explain a little about why they chose the couplet they did?

There are too many to mention, of course, but off the top of my head, there are two very different favorites of mine. I chose them because I like how they speak volumes with just a few simple words.

1) From "Sixteen Miles":
"So knock me down and pick me up and knock me down again/Break my heart, steal my gold and slander my good name". How many (negative) adjectives could you come up with to describe this woman and this relationship? If you stop at 10, you're not trying. You could make a short story, or a film, out of those two verses.

2) From "Don Quixote" (or, Rez, is it "Don Kemosabe"?), since this song has been prominent on the forum lately:
"See the wise and wicked ones who feed upon life's sacred fire/See the soldier with his gun, who must be dead to be admired".
The first part of the couple is surprisingly complex, the second chillingly simple, and the internal rhyme (ones/gun) sews them together. The first verse has two separate patterns of alliteration, the "w's" of "wise and wicked ones", and the subtler "f's" of "feed...life's... fire" that are in opposition to the "w's". Although there is no specification about who these "wise and wicked ones" are, it isn't hard to imagine lots who fit into the category: those who use religion, patriotism, love, family, charity and the like for their own twisted purposes: money, power, status, fulfillment of base desires. You can make up your own list: pedophile priests, gingoistic warmongers who themselves have never served in the military (no, of course I'm not talking about anybody we know), athletes, politicians and others who have affair after affair and then hide behind their spouses who pose for the reporters and say how much they love and support their guys...well, the list could go on forever. It becomes a full-blown fight of good against evil: the wicked against the sacred, the wicked hiding behind sacred pretexts to do their dirty deeds. The second verse of the couplet, of course, is simpler, and is the result of the first--nameless soldiers who slog through the horrors of war because of the greed and hunger for power by those who are in command of those who are appreciated only when they're killed.

I'm sure lots of us will think of lots of other couplets in the days ahead. Nice job, Rez.

ELizabeth
05-02-2005, 10:21 AM
My favorite GL couplet without question is:

"Then in a blaze of tangled hooves,
He gallops off across the dusty plain,"

Th imagery of the first line is nothing short of brilliant. Fire (smoke?) and tangled hooves. Are the tangled hooves causing the fire (smoke?)? The 'screwed upness' of the tangled hooves and the last line seem to me the essence of DQ.
There are more couplets I love but I am pressed for time. Wonderful idea Rez.

Michael Slabicki
05-02-2005, 01:44 PM
When I first logged on to this board - a few days ago - and read some of the more recent posts, I had the idea that members share what they thought were the most powerful metaphors in Lightfoot's poetry. Perhaps sometime soon it might be fun to do that. This favorite couplet topic is a great one. I really like the following, particularly when Gord sings it:

there's a warm wind tonight
and the moon turns the tide
when the stars take their ride she'll be leaving

kaibab
05-02-2005, 01:44 PM
When I first logged on to this board - a few days ago - and read some of the more recent posts, I had the idea that members share what they thought were the most powerful metaphors in Lightfoot's poetry. Perhaps sometime soon it might be fun to do that. This favorite couplet topic is a great one. I really like the following, particularly when Gord sings it:

there's a warm wind tonight
and the moon turns the tide
when the stars take their ride she'll be leaving

Auburn Annie
05-02-2005, 02:04 PM
Each and every bad dream will be hammered into dust / When we get back where we belong
[I'll Tag Along]

Whatever you think of me
I'm still your friend
So other than nothin' what's new
[Tattoo]

Sorry, can't pick just one :D

Auburn Annie
05-02-2005, 02:04 PM
Each and every bad dream will be hammered into dust / When we get back where we belong
[I'll Tag Along]

Whatever you think of me
I'm still your friend
So other than nothin' what's new
[Tattoo]

Sorry, can't pick just one :D

SilverHeels
05-02-2005, 02:07 PM
Whatever you think of me
I'm still your friend
So other than nothin' what's new
[
Annie,
I like that one too.
Can't just pick one either.
Impossible. :)

silenceandsound86
05-02-2005, 02:12 PM
"Bless you all and keep you on the road to tenderness, Heaven can be yours just for now." From All the Lovely Ladies.
A blessing from Gordon to us all.

Rona
05-02-2005, 02:12 PM
"Bless you all and keep you on the road to tenderness, Heaven can be yours just for now." From All the Lovely Ladies.
A blessing from Gordon to us all.

ELizabeth
05-02-2005, 04:47 PM
I just came up with a couple more couplets -= they don't compare to the first one.
In order of preference:

"The bow and the wave never wait for tomorrow,
They just keep on rollin' straight as an
arrow"

I love the inevitability of this couplet.

"An East Coast lady lit my flame,
All on a summer day."
Don't need to explain this one.

byKimberly
05-02-2005, 06:51 PM
Too many and I'm not sure I did this in the context of couplets:

I'm lost with no road signs to guide me
A slave to my whiskey and dreams

I have felt this next one so many times:
Bells of the evening, oh bells that I love
I've got some feelings I long to be rid of

Kimberly

bjb
05-02-2005, 07:34 PM
Will you be one who passed through but never saw?
Never knowing, never feeling anything?
Will you live your whole life through
never knowing what to do?
Will you be one who passed through but never saw?
-- In a Windowpane

Thanks for this topic, Rez! Unbelievable how many times he nails it for us...

Tyler
05-02-2005, 07:38 PM
Ah, this will drive us nuts! Please add the song that the quote is from.

Turning back the pages to the times that I love best.
I wonder if she'll ever do the same.
Now the thing that I call living is just being satisfied
with knowing I got no one left to blame
Carefree Highway.

Edited because Sir John is right, I did not finish.

[ May 02, 2005, 20:18: Message edited by: brink ]

brink
05-02-2005, 07:38 PM
Ah, this will drive us nuts! Please add the song that the quote is from.

Turning back the pages to the times that I love best.
I wonder if she'll ever do the same.
Now the thing that I call living is just being satisfied
with knowing I got no one left to blame
Carefree Highway.

Edited because Sir John is right, I did not finish.

[ May 02, 2005, 20:18: Message edited by: brink ]

johnfowles
05-02-2005, 08:02 PM
Having heard Never Too Close several times in California and Nevada recently these two lines (I am not sure if they qualify as a "couplet" which I read is "A verse unit consisting of two rhymed lines in iambic pentameter" whatever that means when it is at home!!
Anyway the following lyrics have as Smokey wrote and the Beatles sang
"really got a hold on me"
i just love the sound these words make:-
especially the second line
"And so we cried but that is alright
We meant no one no harm "
and Listening to "Triangle" brought back the pleasure of trying to visualise this couplet
"A tuna fish turned to a mermaid in bed and said
"There goes another sandbar""
John Fowles
thinks I am going to compile a collection of my favo(u)rite lines (even one liners) to use in future as my signature

johnfowles
05-02-2005, 08:02 PM
Having heard Never Too Close several times in California and Nevada recently these two lines (I am not sure if they qualify as a "couplet" which I read is "A verse unit consisting of two rhymed lines in iambic pentameter" whatever that means when it is at home!!
Anyway the following lyrics have as Smokey wrote and the Beatles sang
"really got a hold on me"
i just love the sound these words make:-
especially the second line
"And so we cried but that is alright
We meant no one no harm "
and Listening to "Triangle" brought back the pleasure of trying to visualise this couplet
"A tuna fish turned to a mermaid in bed and said
"There goes another sandbar""
John Fowles
thinks I am going to compile a collection of my favo(u)rite lines (even one liners) to use in future as my signature

johnfowles
05-02-2005, 08:08 PM
Originally posted by brink:
Ah, this will drive us nuts! Please add the song that the quote is from.

Turning back the pages to the times that I love best.
Carefree Highway. Well... not allright
I do not think Deb that that qualifies as a couplet with iambic parameters or anything else as it sure looks like a singlet/one liner to my old eyes (perhaps I am too tall??)
John Fowles
Now I get another go!!!
Is this a quadruplet??? Apologies if it is!!
"Then I remembered everything I've learned about survival
Having walked with fools and kings, I've even read the bible
There I came upon some lines giving me direction
Gather not your gold on earth, it will not pass inspection"

johnfowles
05-02-2005, 08:08 PM
Originally posted by brink:
Ah, this will drive us nuts! Please add the song that the quote is from.

Turning back the pages to the times that I love best.
Carefree Highway. Well... not allright
I do not think Deb that that qualifies as a couplet with iambic parameters or anything else as it sure looks like a singlet/one liner to my old eyes (perhaps I am too tall??)
John Fowles
Now I get another go!!!
Is this a quadruplet??? Apologies if it is!!
"Then I remembered everything I've learned about survival
Having walked with fools and kings, I've even read the bible
There I came upon some lines giving me direction
Gather not your gold on earth, it will not pass inspection"

johnfowles
05-02-2005, 08:18 PM
Originally posted by johnfowles:
quote:Now I get another go!!!
[/QB][/QUOTE]and another "Apology"
John Fowles
"The rustle of her hair upon his skin
I made a grab at anything, the earth was gone and I was on a vicious circle then"

johnfowles
05-02-2005, 08:18 PM
Originally posted by johnfowles:
quote:Now I get another go!!!
[/QB][/QUOTE]and another "Apology"
John Fowles
"The rustle of her hair upon his skin
I made a grab at anything, the earth was gone and I was on a vicious circle then"

MisterHoot'nholler
05-02-2005, 08:27 PM
Your coat of green will protect her
Her wings will grow your love will too
But all too soon your mighty branches
Will cease to hold her she'll fly from you

The Way I Feel....

Laci
05-02-2005, 08:27 PM
Your coat of green will protect her
Her wings will grow your love will too
But all too soon your mighty branches
Will cease to hold her she'll fly from you

The Way I Feel....

klb
05-02-2005, 08:32 PM
"I'm sailing down a summer wind,
I've got whiskers on my chin
and I like the mood I'm in..."

Oh, to be on a small boat on fresh or salt water, with your hand on the tiller and the sun and spray in your face. Now, that's better'n sex....or at least rarer and longer-lasting.

jon
05-02-2005, 08:32 PM
"I'm sailing down a summer wind,
I've got whiskers on my chin
and I like the mood I'm in..."

Oh, to be on a small boat on fresh or salt water, with your hand on the tiller and the sun and spray in your face. Now, that's better'n sex....or at least rarer and longer-lasting.

Janie
05-02-2005, 11:27 PM
Hi Rez,
How about:
"I was stone cold sober that day last October
When you reached across the table and put
your hand upon my shoulder"
To me the bleak mood in that song is reflected in those lines; listen to it....I think you'll see what I mean.

hkusam
05-02-2005, 11:27 PM
Hi Rez,
How about:
"I was stone cold sober that day last October
When you reached across the table and put
your hand upon my shoulder"
To me the bleak mood in that song is reflected in those lines; listen to it....I think you'll see what I mean.

Rebecca
05-03-2005, 01:43 AM
"Triangle, triangle,
Oh see my ship dangle"

stolyrvlad
05-04-2005, 11:53 PM
There are so many it makes my head spin. But I'll agree with ClosetCanadian's choice from "On The High Seas":

"I don't want to own the key to some ghostly mansion where souls are set free..."

Absolutely haunting. (and that goes for the melody.)

SilverHeels
05-05-2005, 10:50 AM
Originally posted by Rebecca:
"Triangle, triangle,
Oh see my ship dangle" Rebecca! Behave yourself! :D

Restless
05-05-2005, 01:13 PM
"Does anyone know where the love of God goes when the waves turn the minutes to hours"

swede
05-05-2005, 09:20 PM
There are so many -
I come to this garden, I come here to rest,
Early each day upon risin'
I think of my lost love, from over the sea,
And sometimes I've wondered, if she thinks of me.

Oh heck, the whole darn song!

But the creatures of evil, have captured her heart
And that same old obsession, still keeps us apart.

Brings out the true pain of a long distance relationship and not necessarily in miles!

Thanks for starting this one Rex.

Linda
05-05-2005, 09:20 PM
There are so many -
I come to this garden, I come here to rest,
Early each day upon risin'
I think of my lost love, from over the sea,
And sometimes I've wondered, if she thinks of me.

Oh heck, the whole darn song!

But the creatures of evil, have captured her heart
And that same old obsession, still keeps us apart.

Brings out the true pain of a long distance relationship and not necessarily in miles!

Thanks for starting this one Rex.

vlmagee
05-06-2005, 08:26 AM
"That war is not the answer
That young men should not die"
---Sit Down Young Stranger---

charlene
05-06-2005, 08:28 AM
Wherefore and Why

Then all at once it came to me, I saw the wherefore
And you can see it if you try
It's in the sun above, it's in the one you love
You'll never know the reason why

some things just can't be explained....
we just have to believe...

Char

charlene
05-06-2005, 08:28 AM
Wherefore and Why

Then all at once it came to me, I saw the wherefore
And you can see it if you try
It's in the sun above, it's in the one you love
You'll never know the reason why

some things just can't be explained....
we just have to believe...

Char

maggiemae
05-07-2005, 08:32 AM
This has always been a favorite.

"All I'm after is the sun and the summer nights
By the seashore, don't want no more neon lights
Just the sand and the sky as the hours roll by ..."

As I get closer to retirement I find these words floating around in my head. :redface: )

gman
05-07-2005, 12:14 PM
The last time she kissed my cheek
Her lips were like the wilted leaves
Upon the autumn covered hills
Resting on the frozen ground
The seeds of love lie cold and still
Beneath a battered marking stone
It lies forgotten

<sigh> XXXO Monica :confused:

monica
05-07-2005, 12:14 PM
The last time she kissed my cheek
Her lips were like the wilted leaves
Upon the autumn covered hills
Resting on the frozen ground
The seeds of love lie cold and still
Beneath a battered marking stone
It lies forgotten

<sigh> XXXO Monica :confused:

The Rez
05-30-2005, 11:03 PM
"Her name was Anne, and I'll be damned if I recall her face."

internal rhyme of perfection in this Carefree Hwy couplet.

The Rez

Boat House AKA member
06-04-2005, 02:33 PM
Too many, and many already listed. OK here's one from Long Way Back Home

Oh say can you see, my best friend is me
I'm a friend I could use

Kilgore
06-04-2005, 02:33 PM
Too many, and many already listed. OK here's one from Long Way Back Home

Oh say can you see, my best friend is me
I'm a friend I could use

Sydney Steve
06-04-2005, 03:03 PM
Slightly off topic. My couplet has not yet been spoken or sung by the Man but it would be my favourite . It would be :

"The Australians have waited since 1974 ,
Maybe its time I paid them a visit".

Sheryl
06-04-2005, 10:24 PM
Originally posted by SYDNEY STEVE:
Slightly off topic. My couplet has not yet been spoken or sung by the Man but it would be my favourite . It would be :

"The Australians have waited since 1974 ,
Maybe its time I paid them a visit". LOL!!

The Rez
06-05-2005, 02:50 AM
How 'bout:

"Triangle of Wonder oh, hear my heart's thunder
Carry me away to those good folks Down Under"

Wow! That even impressed me!
[rim shot w/ cowbell and Ahooooga horn]

The Rez

SeattleRain
06-05-2005, 04:27 AM
"Is there someone sowing seams through all my hopes, through all my dreams? You know living a life of ease don't make your meals taste better, if you please"

pretentious, moi?

Jim Nasium
06-05-2005, 04:27 AM
"Is there someone sowing seams through all my hopes, through all my dreams? You know living a life of ease don't make your meals taste better, if you please"

pretentious, moi?

violet Blue
06-05-2005, 12:25 PM
"You got faith, to make you meet the cost,
and you know you’d best not wait,
He who hesitates is lost."

Shellfish

The Rez
06-05-2005, 10:50 PM
Kaibab:

Metaphores? Wonderful. Start us up the topic and I'll join in with ya.

Don Q: Reasons behind the couplet choices? Also, wonderful. Glad to see that's begun.

If I may, a double couplet:

For me, tonight. For me, 20yrs ago tonight.
For Cindy . . . yet w/ absolute Thanksgiving for the Lord restoring owr relationship, as I had the priviledge of singing for her son and daughter - from pre-school thru 6th grade at Maranatha Christian Acadamy - in my guise as Uncle Ned.

Still . . .

It's a wicked wind
And it chills me to the bone
And if you do not believe me
Come and gaze upon the shadow at your door

Vulnerable tonigt, I guess,

The Rez

johnfowles
06-06-2005, 10:05 AM
Originally posted by The Rez:
Kaibab:

If I may, a double couplet:

The Rez wasn't that a quadruplet???
John Fowles
While the young ones slept overhead
Beneath the quilts that mother made, when all the prayers were said

johnfowles
06-06-2005, 10:05 AM
Originally posted by The Rez:
Kaibab:

If I may, a double couplet:

The Rez wasn't that a quadruplet???
John Fowles
While the young ones slept overhead
Beneath the quilts that mother made, when all the prayers were said

stationmaster
06-06-2005, 11:17 AM
"Oh where have you gone...what have we done.....
Where have you gone.....Harmony"

That line always gets to me. Well, the whole song actually!

Borderstone
06-06-2005, 03:19 PM
"One day time will tell,when your livin' in yesterday."

"Thinkin' of things to do,thinkin' of things to say."

"Thinking of things divine...find a bottom line!"

"Is the there anybody home?"
"Don't you know I'm all alone?"
"Can you tell me where I am?"
"All I can do....is love you 'til the end...of all time." ;)

The Rez
06-08-2005, 02:19 AM
Can't tell you why tonite (would if I could,) but what keeps running thru my brain is:

"When I stand on my on sod
It feels so good to be home, by God"

Perhaps my time on The Highway is not yet done.

I will look forward to the knowing when this couplet of Gord's becomes The Rez', also.

The Rez

musky_man
06-08-2005, 01:18 PM
"Does anyone know where the love of God goes,
when the waves turn the minutes to hours"

- The Wreck of the Edmund Fitzgerald

I can think of no better phrase that captures the desolation those brave souls must have felt, as they were tossed about like inanimate flotsam on the water.

stationmaster
06-09-2005, 10:53 AM
Yes musky, I thought of that line when I saw this topic. It's one to remember...

mnmouse
06-09-2005, 12:40 PM
"Listen to the pictures flow
Across the room into your mind they go..."

Borderstone
06-11-2005, 06:05 PM
"....and it shines on and on,
'til all sadness is gone.
...and if children had wings,
I would sing them their song."

"With a smile on my face and a tear in my eye,
everything...will be fine by and by."

(I get so melancholy after that line *sniff*. :(

The Rez
06-12-2005, 03:17 AM
Tonite Dear Ones,

I'm still suffering the Joy of singing for a jillion kids on the radio, out of Calvary Chapel Costa Mesa, this very early morn.

This couplet would be most welcome:

"And she rubs my feet while the sun goes down
And the wheels of love go round:

Cotton Jenny: I'm sore.

The Rez

The Rez
06-15-2005, 01:02 AM
This couplet just won't let go tonite.

Appropriate . . .

"Well the kind of test that I like the best is rubbin' the wrong girl right."

The Rez

PS: Seems like Gord took to singin' "lovin'" instead of "rubbin'" back when the tune was in rotation. But, I still like the "rubbin'" thing better.

mnmouse
06-16-2005, 10:54 AM
This one's been running through my head today:

You might walk a lonely street
Until one day you chance to meet
A stranger who might ask where have you been


Mouse

Dan O'Malley
06-24-2005, 04:08 PM
"I've been out drinking all day, I got carried away at the parlour last night." Its funny at first, but tragic in a way. One of my favourite songs.

Sheryl
06-25-2005, 02:56 AM
Originally posted by Dan O'Malley:
"I've been out drinking all day, I got carried away at the parlour last night." Its funny at first, but tragic in a way. One of my favourite songs. Definitely in my Top Ten.

gwen sue snyder
06-25-2005, 10:04 AM
Originally posted by Sheryl:
quote:Originally posted by Dan O'Malley:
"I've been out drinking all day, I got carried away at the parlour last night." Its funny at first, but tragic in a way. One of my favourite songs. Definitely in my Top Ten. [/QUOTE]Well Not All Rright
I am ashamed to say that I had to google for "drinking all day" to find that that is from Tattoo, a song that I never particularly noticed until I heard the cover by recent* Lightfoot Tribute band member Matt Carl (*Saratoga Springs 2003)
http://www.johnfowles.org.uk/LIGHTFOOT/the%20band_640x480.jpg
from left to right Ed Mullen Cathy Cowette Derek Kidd and Matt Carl on stage April 2003
John Fowles
Gordon Lightfoot Tribute – Aengus Finnan, Valdy, Lynn Miles
http://www.quillsquotesandnotes.com/images/gordltft-poster.gif
from an illustrated sort of "blog" page at:-
http://www.quillsquotesandnotes.com/ws-gordon-lightfoot-tribute.htm

[ June 25, 2005, 10:38: Message edited by: fowlesjohn ]

fowlesjohn
06-25-2005, 10:04 AM
Originally posted by Sheryl:
quote:Originally posted by Dan O'Malley:
"I've been out drinking all day, I got carried away at the parlour last night." Its funny at first, but tragic in a way. One of my favourite songs. Definitely in my Top Ten. [/QUOTE]Well Not All Rright
I am ashamed to say that I had to google for "drinking all day" to find that that is from Tattoo, a song that I never particularly noticed until I heard the cover by recent* Lightfoot Tribute band member Matt Carl (*Saratoga Springs 2003)
http://www.johnfowles.org.uk/LIGHTFOOT/the%20band_640x480.jpg
from left to right Ed Mullen Cathy Cowette Derek Kidd and Matt Carl on stage April 2003
John Fowles
Gordon Lightfoot Tribute – Aengus Finnan, Valdy, Lynn Miles
http://www.quillsquotesandnotes.com/images/gordltft-poster.gif
from an illustrated sort of "blog" page at:-
http://www.quillsquotesandnotes.com/ws-gordon-lightfoot-tribute.htm

[ June 25, 2005, 10:38: Message edited by: fowlesjohn ]